'why bottle might be better than breast' - GMTV this morning

[babyignoramus]

Hasn't even been shown yet but can't imagine it's going to go down too well here!!!!

Anyone else going to watch - it's going to annoy the arse off me but I can't seem to tear my eyes away......

What's sensationalist about Sakura's post?

"I do think people need more education about the risks of formula feeding"

Feeding your child a healthy and nutritious alternative to breastmilk is not a risk. Not everyone can breast feed. To say that formula feeding comes at a risk is, imo, sensationalist.

Swallowed a fly is making a lot of sense here.
As to the 'risks' of breastfeeding - I'm no expert, but to speculate: driving and carrying risks due to lack of sleep (yes I know ff can still result in lack of sleep but at least you can share the feeds!); greater likelihood of PND if mother is struggling (I have no numbers here, just personal experience..) and I'm sure there are more. It's a subject that probably hasn't been researched extensively, and for good reasons, but I'm sure some risks do exist.
MaggieBeauLeo lol at the thought of you 'breastfeeding yourself'

I did struggle with bf but was lucky to have excellent support - both from professionals (although I did avoid HVs ) and from dh, which is just as important.

The sad thing is that there are still many women, often in the poorer areas (at least, that is the case in the West of Scotland) who don't even think of bf, or even more , are disugsted by the idea of bf, who do think that ff is just as good as bf and that bf is not worth the "hassle"

That is why the excellent bf counsellors that I used at my maternity hospital said that the real effort had to be in the schools, before people have even begun to think about such issues, to get across that is the norm and not "disgusting".

There are risks to formula feeding.
Simply a statement of facts.
People need to know this if they are going to make informed decisions.

Mathshoeybunny27 - I tihnk someone further down said that there had been research that showed that, contrary to people's beliefs, bf tend to sleep better than ff babies.

I don't know where the research is - but I can only give the anecdotal evidence that my fully bf ds slept through from 2 weeks - in fact too early, so for a while I actually had to wake him to feed him

sabire - maybe you should have read the thread fully before you comment. i decided to bf before ds was born. he lost weight due to the fact that he couldn't latch on properly and had to be cup fed so he didn't starve to death. we only found out later that he has a problem with his muscles including facial ones. at the time i was drained and was happy to listen to a 'professional' ie pediatrician instead of mummies who are so obsessed with bf that they miss the full picture. you seem to have an idealised vision of what it is to be a mum and i hope for your sake that you never have to swallow your words. i was more concerned at the time by my baby surviving and putting him first than a selfish obsession with playing earth mother.

I feel for you, secretgardin, but since when was bf 'playing earth mother'

mathshoneybunny27 you're right - you are no expert.

prettybird
at my maternity hospital in the West of Scotland, there were no breastfeeding counsellors and the breastfeeding "support" was provided by health care assistants with no training and no experience

as that hospital (Queen Mother's) has UNICEF Baby Friendly full accreditation, it took me a while in to my long stay there to realise this, by which time my DD had become very ill.

There is something weird going on here, where we are pressured to bf antenatally, and then provided no useful support or encouragement postnatally. It is the worst of both worlds, and leaves mothers feeling horribly guilty once the dust has settled.

I'd be glad if someone could point me to the research that bf babies sleep better

the anecdotal evidence is so overwhelming in the other direction - and from friends and family members' experience, I do believe that FF sleep better, as well as allowing for shared feeding

"Sakura -what rot. Forumla whilst it may not be as natural as breast millk is produced to the highest level of nutrition and provides all the eceesary vitamins and health requirements that a baby needs. It does not provide antibodies that a mother's milk does but it is certainly not harmful - how sensationalist."

Stigaloid - a baby is especially vulnerable because its born with an underdeveloped immune system. That's why a baby who has breastmilk is less likely to end up in hospital with an infectious illness, particularly respitory illness: because it's getting the antibodies through breastmilk that it lacks at birth and in the early months of life.

These are no 'extra' antibodies in breastmilk - they are the antibodies the baby needs for optimal health that it has not made itself.

A baby who doesn't have breastmilk is additionally vulnerable to infectious disease - that's just basic good sense.

It's also the case that 5 times as many ff babies end up in hospital with gastro-enteritis than bf babies. That's partly because formula - however 'clever' it is, simply doesn't produce the same sort of healthy gut environment as breastmilk, partly because of the high iron content (it needs to be high as babies can't absorb iron as well from cows milk formula as they can from human milk).

I really can't see how you can look at these facts - that ff babies have far higher rates of the two most common childhood illnesses: respitory infection and gastro-enteritis, and come to the conclusion that talking about the 'risks' of ff is 'sensationalist'.

DreamsInBinary - i meant me, not anyone else. my baby came first in that situation. i had a vision of bf my ds before he was born and came down to earth with a bump. i would have been selfish had i decided to bf just for the sake of at that time.

I actually think an honest

"no we just don't have the resources in maternity hospitals to support breastfeeding - if you want to do it, you are on your own"

would be better than the current situation where women trust that the help will be there, and then feel horribly let down when it isn't, or blame themselves

I guess we also have to consider the 'risks' to mother, such as mastitis and thrush etc if we are to look at the whole picture. I just think the word risk is too emotive here, and doesn't help to convey the facts.

gypsymoon why the rude comment?

"at the time i was drained . you seem to have an idealised vision of what it is to be a mum and i hope for your sake that you never have to swallow your words. i was more concerned at the time by my baby surviving and putting him first than a selfish obsession with playing earth mother.

I haven't read the full thread to - apologies for missing your earlier posts and that important part of your story.

I do not have any sort of idealised picture of what it is to be a mum. I have three young children of my own and have struggled with difficult pregnancies, difficult births and at times very difficult experiences of breastfeeding.

I'm disturbed by your sentiment that wanting to breastfeed is somehow 'selfish' and 'playing at earth mother' when breastfeeding is proving a struggle for mum and baby. Is this how you felt about your own wish to continue to breastfeed your child? That it was an expression of some silly, selfish fad?

As for preferring to listen to a 'professional' instead of 'mummies who are obsessed with bf' - I never intimated that you should follow the advice of friends, only that when someone is really struggling with bf they should have access advice from someone with real expertise in breastfeeding, namely a lactation consultant. Unfortunately many paediatricians are very poorly educated on the subject of breastfeeding - and why should they be if it is not their area of expertise or learning?

if you read the previous thread properly i said that about myself and not insinuated that about anyone else. my head was so filled with doing things naturally ie birth and bf that i had to let go of how i wanted things to be and concentrate on what was best in the situation. they were my emotions.

"...Unfortunately many paediatricians are very poorly educated on the subject of breastfeeding - and why should they be if it is not their area of expertise or learning"

That is one of the (many) things I am angry about. Of course paediatricians should be educated in breastfeeding. They are the ones who advise breastfeeding mothers of sick babies - and usually seem to advise them to stick to a rigid 3 hourly routine

AvrilH - I had ds at the QMs too!

It was nearly 9 years ago though. I did hear though that BF counsellor that was particualrly helpful retired last year, but there was another one who was also good and the sister of the ward was also very supportive of bf. Ds was very poor at latching on and I had to call for help every single time (and he/we were in hopsital for 5 days as he had bad jaundice) and although I sometimes had to wait a while for a midwife to come and help, I always did get it eventually.

mathshoneybunny27 - you made a statement claiming not to be an expert and given the examples you gave regarding 'risks of breastfeeding' I had no choice but to agree.

Bf mothers, research shows, can get 45 mins or more sleep than ff mums.

I've bf for more than 4 years and had PND after both babies and was on anti-depressants.

I am afraid you brought up the concept of 'risks of bf' in an earlier post..and I have to question which facts are you talking about?? The ones you speculate abut re bf? I'm curious...Are they simply anecdotal or from a study I don't know about?

secretgardin I'm glad you take responsibility for those feelings being your own. I don't think that deciding to breast feed or persevering with it is a selfish act, in most cases.

mathshoneybunny You have talked about the risks of driving when tired being related to BFing.

Well, as has been pointed out; tiredness can be caused by a multitude of factors. I was frequently very tired when my babies were tiny so I either avoided driving if possible (it actually made far more sense to be at home most of the time anyway in order to feed as frequently as needed) or, if I had to, I would drive and take that risk. I assume most women don't have to go back to work for at least the first month or so post-birth so driving is probably not strictly necessary for many mums, at least at first. I really, really don't see this is a 'risk of BFing' at all.

PND is caused by a multitude of factors and is a complicated business but I believe there is some evidence that PND may be more likely following a difficult birth and is more common in mothers who do not breast feed. I will see if I can find that research and post a link here.

On a purely anecdotal level; I have suffered PND with this child, despite an idyllic birth and fairly straightforward breast feeding experience. One of my best friends is suffering dreadful PND following a nightmare birth (life and death situation) and a crap breast feeding experience. Anecdotes can't teach us much in this case.

"that the bf was only one part of the child's experience"

Well I agree with you, and nothing I said suggested that I see bf as the 'only' important thing. That said - tiny babies do little other than sleep and feed, and to a very large extent their relationship with their mother is mediated through the experience of breastfeeding.

"and that the emotional welfare of the mother is not a separate issue from that of the child but the key element of the child's experience and life quality as a being totally dependent upon her and therefore her well being and state of mind."

Yes - I agree with this also, that you have to see mother and baby as a unit. But I don't think that the usual discussions about feeding choices generally do this, other than to pay lip service to the idea of 'happy mother happy baby'. From where I'm standing the usual argument seems to go like this: breastfeeding is really hard, and if a mother doesn't like it or struggles with it then it's better for her and her baby if she doesn't do it.

But bf is especially hard for women who are given crap care, and for women who come from communities where bf is not the norm. Does this mean that all those mothers are REALLY better off not breastfeeding and their babies are really better off without their mothers' milk? It seems all wrong to me to arrive at that sort of conclusion, when we know that unproblematic breastfeeding is linked to better mental and physical health in both mothers and babies. We should be asking the question: why is breastfeeding so much harder for some women than for others? and why are social class, education, age and ethnicity the predominant factors when it comes to the likelyhood of someone choosing to breastfeed, or to continuing to breastfeed as long as they wish?

Finally - I do agree about the importance of networks of support for mothers in different communities. However, as I think that unproblematic bf is actually less onorous and less stressful for women than normal bottlefeeding, I don't think that high bf rates are reliant on mothers having a highly developed network of support within the family. I live in an area where there are lots of immigrant women who are separated from wider family support, and we have incredibly high rates of bf. This is despite the fact that many of these women have large families with close age spacings, and often live in quite poor housing. They breastfeed because - well, it's just part of what they see as the normal picture of being a mum. Most other women in this country simply don't see it in that way.

Sabire - maybe in those communities, the men also see bf as normal, which in turn helps support the mothers.

Part of the problem in this country is that so many men seem to see bf as something abnormal or disgsuting. When I went to the bf workshop before ds was born, they said that one of the major factors in "extended" bf (and in the West of Scotland, that meant "beoynd 6 weeks" ) was the support of the partner.

Prettybird - when I spoke to the midwife who is "clinical lead" afterwards, she kept pointing out that the hospital is closing down.

I was on the delivery ward for several hours after the birth and kept asking for help and was told again and again that I would get help on the postnatal ward. On the postnatal ward, I had some cursory help on transfer and was then left to it. After that I could not get any help until DD had developed hypoglycaemia. On the night she was born I buzzed for help getting her out of the cot as she was crying and I still could not get up. By the time they came she had given up crying and I was firmly told to "Go back to sleep, she'll still be there in the morning".

I was repeadedly told off, over several days, in the SCBU for taking too long to breastfeed her "nappy change and breastfeed should never take more than half an hour in total". When she was back on the postnatal ward, I had hopeless "help" from untrained assistants, nearly every time I buzzed for help. I was encouraged to use formula in the SCBU and on the postnatal ward my pleas for either some help with latch or some formula were responded to with bottles of formula.

They said they don't have breastfeeding counsellors any more, that they used to but it wasn't working.