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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to not feel any compassion for Ronnie Biggs?

175 replies

wannaBe · 07/08/2009 09:37

If he hadn't done a runner to Brazil he would have served his sentence by now and would have been out by now anyway.

The only reason he came back was to receive treatment on the nhs.

Why on earth should a man who has committed a crime, has evaded capture for 30 years be set free?

OP posts:

edam · 07/08/2009 17:55

Thanks, abraid!

Blu, very good point about it being the blow that kills, not the intention.

FabBakerGirlIsBack · 07/08/2009 17:58

YANBU

He stuck 2 fingers up at British Justice but suddenly the British system was good enough when he needed FREE medical treatment.

He should not have been released.

Someone died because of what he did and no amount of spin will change that.

Squitten · 07/08/2009 18:37

YANBU - I certainly have no sympathy for the man. He flouted the law and only came back out of convenience. If he was 30 years younger, I would absolutely be in favour of leaving him to rot.

On the other hand, prisons are notoriously overcrowded and I do wonder if it serves any purpose to keep a frail and ill old man whose useful life is now over locked in a cell that could be housing a young murderer or rapist who definitely needs to be behind cell bars for the rest of his/her natural life...

beanieb · 07/08/2009 20:05

"the huge gulf in morality between the sort of person who hits someone else over the head in the pursuit of greed, and the sort who doesn't.

And if you hit someone, you need to know they may die, whether you plan that or not. It is the blow that kills, not the intention."

Ronnie Biggs didn't hit anyone though, and the blow didn't kill the train driver.

Someone was injured because of what they all did but no one seems to give two hoots about the dozen or so other men who were convicted and then released.

FabBakerGirlIsBack the train driver didn't die from the blow. It's a common misconception but he died from leukemia years later.

FabBakerGirlIsBack · 07/08/2009 20:15

It isn't a misconception that he didn't fully recover after the assault.

beanieb · 07/08/2009 20:23

Didn't say it was

"Someone died because of what he did" is actually incorrect and so there really is no spin to be done at all.

FabBakerGirlIsBack · 07/08/2009 20:26

he was attacked

he never fully recovered

therefore he died as a result

he obviously would have died at some point but he is obviously weak

I am not spinning anything

beanieb · 07/08/2009 20:34

no honestly, trust me and the facts - he died 7 years after the train robbery of Leukemia, it was medically proven that his death was not the result of injury. Honestly, I know that some people really do think this but it was stated at the inquest into his death that it was unrelated to his injuries.

Unless you have some other evidence to the contrary?

FabBakerGirlIsBack · 07/08/2009 20:37

That may be so but no one can argue that he never recovered mentally.

jujumaman · 07/08/2009 20:43

If you hit someone with an iron bar you are aware you might kill them - it was attempted murder

Haven't read the whole thread but OP YANBU

beanieb · 07/08/2009 20:44

According to reports he never fully recovered enough to return to work, I don't really know what his mental state was. I read he suffered from headaches for the rest of his life but I don't think he was brain-damaged iyswim.

all I know is he didn't die as a result of the injuries.

chegirl · 07/08/2009 20:57

It is very widely believed that RB DID strike the blow and that the poor man died of his injuries several years later.

Neither is true. I wonder why it has grown into such an urban myth. Has it been reported as truth in the past?

I have no problem with him being released. He is no danger to anyone, he is old and ill. There is nothing to be gained from keeping him incarcerated.

I dont feel anymore sympathy for him than I would for any other sick person though. But then I dont really feel any less (I think).

Jux · 07/08/2009 21:22

I have no sympathy for the bastard at all. I'm glad he spent most of his life abroad as it saved us a lot of money keeping him incarcerated. He was a nasty little scrote who ended up living a sad a lonely life with lots of (our) money.

His wife left him when his son was two years old. His son, I suspect, is suffering from hero worship; felt inadequate due to lack of male parent in early life and found a crusade. With luck he'll grow up now.

I don't care whether he dies in prison or out of it. I don't like Jack Straw changing his mind, that's all. But they let the Guiness guy out for a trumped up health reason and did nothing when he got better; why should Biggs be treated differently? Class?

Sassybeast · 07/08/2009 21:46

His absolute arrogance and his lack of remorse have cancelled out any of the compassion I may have felt for a dying man. I wonder if OK will be doing a tribute issue ?

welliemum · 07/08/2009 22:08

Maybe slightly off topic, but it's interesting how no-one is bothered about the stealing.

Of course stealing is less important than violence, but stealing, even from a bank, isn't a victimless crime. Directly or indirectly, we as a society are paying when people steal. It's not some sort of harmless hobby.

TheLadyEvenstar · 07/08/2009 22:48

I have been thinking about this inbetween doing things with the dc. Now i wonder how many of you feel Derek Bentley got what he deserved by being hung and was wrongly pardoned.

beanieb · 08/08/2009 00:15

Is derek Bentley the 'let him have it' bloke, was he wrongly pardoned?

edam · 08/08/2009 00:29

Completely different cases. And no-one is suggesting Ronnie Biggs should have been put to death.

TheLadyEvenstar · 08/08/2009 00:55

Edam no, but people are suggesting that because Ronnie Biggs was involved in a robbery where a man was injured he was responsible for it.

Surely Derek Bentley should not have been granted a pardon after death especially as he was with Christopher Craig who murdered a police officer...I mean he was just as involved and did shout "Let him have it" so he obviously was just as guilty...but there was public outcry for years that he was innocent. In death he got that status.

Derek Bentley was not deemed feeble minded, had tried to escape was carrying a knife and a knuckle duster although he did not use them, he agreed to breaking into the warehouse. Therefore where are the differences? if the death penalty had been in place when Ronnie biggs was sentenced then he would not have escaped however this is not the case and he did.
At the time Bentley was sentenced, and unlike today, there was no recognition of diminished responsibilty therefore he was sentenced like any other adult of the time. Although there was Criminal insanity, in other words whether the Bentley was able to differentiate between right and wrong something it was proved he could do.. he was not classed as insane at the time of his crime.

So if we look at it that way....both were convicted, ok 1 was hung but later pardoned...the other has been given early release to live his dying days.....the end result is the same...the only actual difference is that nobody was murdered by the great train robbers but Derek Bentley and Christopher Craig did murder 1 officer and injure 1 officer.

TheLadyEvenstar · 08/08/2009 00:57

Derek Bentley was also cuffed and under arrest at the time Craig fired the fatal shot and had already tried to escape, it could be argued he thought this would be how he could have a second attempt at escaping.

FAQtothefuture · 08/08/2009 01:06

ok a few points

pneumonia does kill - certainly killed my uncle last week anyhow

secondly - this *FREE" treatment people keep bleating on about.........he'd have got that even if he hadn't escaped from prison. Being in prison does't mean they stop access to medial care.

TheLadyEvenstar · 08/08/2009 01:11

FAQ sorry to hear of your uncle

edam · 08/08/2009 01:15

FAQ, I think the issue about free treatment isn't to do with being in or out of prison in the UK, it's because Biggs spent 30 years boasting about having evaded justice and then crawled back to the UK when he needed the NHS.

TLE - so many differences with poor Derek Bentley. As you say, he was cuffed and under police control when the shot was fired. So no, he was not responsible.

Further, he clearly had a learning disability. Sadly this was not recognised in the way that insanity was as a mitigating factor.

Finally, those infamous words 'let him have it' are clearly capable of holding two entirely contradictory meanings. It is obviously unjust to kill a man because you pretend he meant one thing when there is just as much chance that he meant the other.

The conviction of Derek Bentley for murder, and the sentence, were vindictive. The actual murderer escaped the death sentence due to his age, so Bentley was made to suffer.

It was shameful then, and it's shameful today.

FAQtothefuture · 08/08/2009 01:32

as an aside - just reading the BBC article about the robbery.........how come the bloke that handed his money back and pleaded guilty only got £80,000?? I bet he was happy to plead guilty as he'd been short changed.........

oopsagain · 08/08/2009 23:31

I think briniging derek bentley into this is way way wrong...

Ronnie Biggs escaped and went abroad and flaunted his escape...

if he wanted a smaller sentence he should have appealed... I agree it was long, but there is a way of regisstering your disagreement with this- and it shoud be through the judicial system.

His sons pretty much said that he told the guards to f off as they left...
i think he took abd advice in the long term and was beligerant and unpleasant to those involved.

i don't really have any sympathy for him tbh.

He had his chance to put things right over the years he was away and didn't make any sort of effort to right the worngs.

If it was your son that had done this- wouldn't you want him to take some responsibilty and to return and deal with the things that had happened.
I can't imagine any of you would be proud of the behaviour he subsequently came up with.

In life i truly belive we are all allowed to mess up- and the real test of a person is how they manage their mistakes.
And robbing a train and running away is a mistake in anyones book, no?

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