Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Original poster

to not feel any compassion for Ronnie Biggs?

175 replies

wannaBe · 07/08/2009 09:37

If he hadn't done a runner to Brazil he would have served his sentence by now and would have been out by now anyway.

The only reason he came back was to receive treatment on the nhs.

Why on earth should a man who has committed a crime, has evaded capture for 30 years be set free?

OP posts:

edam · 07/08/2009 11:10

yes, if I went out intending to commit a crime with a bunch of thugs who were prepared to use violence. And that's what the law says, quite rightly.

edam · 07/08/2009 11:11

btw, he wasn't an innocent law-abiding member of the public - he was a career criminal. He knew fine well what he was getting into.

Original poster

wannaBe · 07/08/2009 11:12

fwiw I don't think Jack Tweed should have been free while Jade was dying either, but that's surely another thread which was well debated at the time iirc.

"And lets look at the bigger picture yes he commited a crime but the man is about to die...forget him for a minute, wouldn't it be nice for his family to
know he died a free man,with them by his side? imho yes it would." so where do you draw the line then? Should all criminals be free when they're about to die just so their families can say they died free with them by their side? Should Myra Hindley have been feed before she died? Ian Huntley? Rose West? What Makes Ronnie Biggs different to any other criminal that he should be freed on compassionate grounds while others should die in jail?

OP posts:

TheLadyEvenstar · 07/08/2009 11:13

Tired he spent 15 months. he escaped during outside excercise. A ladder was thrown over the fence and he and 3 other prisoners get away, all being driven off in different vehicles. He went to paris first got false papers and underwent plastic surgery. he then went to australia and left there when the police traced him.

scottishmummy · 07/08/2009 11:13

yes collectively if a group gather for specific act of violence there is a shared and collective responsibility

briggs et al took a weapon, intending to use it.it was premeditated

edam · 07/08/2009 11:14

15 months + something like eight years now.

TheLadyEvenstar · 07/08/2009 11:14

Wannabe he did not kill anyone, not a woman, man or child. he stole some money yes a large amount as part of a gang but he did not kill anyone. the people you mention did.

edam · 07/08/2009 11:15

Interesting that the solicitor who sorted out the farm only got three years, though. Class an issue, I guess - solicitor would equally have known these were a bunch of dangerous men prepared to use violence.

mayorquimby · 07/08/2009 11:15

"If you were out with a group of people and one of them picked up a weapon and hit someone with it....are you all responsible for the actions of one person?"

no because there would be no joint enterprise in going about legal activities (i.e. going out) if someone acts outside of what might be reasonable foreseen actions.
so if i'm out for dinner with someone and do not discuss with them the notion of kicking the shit out of the waiter and they do it off their own bat, i could not be expeted to reasonably foresee this nor have i contributed to the event.

if however i discuss and plan the armed robbery of a train or a bank with a group of people and then actually carry out the plan and one of my criminal counter-parts decides to use their weapons then i have contributed to the assault in the planning of such an event where it is reasonably foreseeable that one of my party might assault someone (even more so if it is an express part of the plan which we are lead to believe it was)

MadameCastafiore · 07/08/2009 11:15

I think it is a sad reflection on society and especially mothers when you see a picture of an old man who is dying and all you can think about is cost or something he was involved in as a young man that had awful repurcussions, I look and think how sad it is, he looks so sad and is probably scared of what he will face upon death in the very near future.

edam · 07/08/2009 11:16

TLE, people have explained over and over again that he is legally and morally jointly responsible for the attack on the train driver, who never recovered.

Tiredmumno1 · 07/08/2009 11:16

God grief didnt realise he escaped like that. I think its ok if they were sure he only had days to live, i understand he is being fed through a tube, but if there is a chance of recovery, maybe it should just be temporary release. Then if he does recover, back he goes.

kittycatty · 07/08/2009 11:17

This should have nothing to do with his family's feeling's. he didnt think about his family OR the victim and their family when he/they commited this crime.

If he dies alone in prison then that's HIS own fault, no-one else's. The world has gone mad, criminals have more rights than their victims and its not right!

edam · 07/08/2009 11:17

Lots of people are scared of dying. I know I am. Maybe he'd be less scared if he'd ever shown some remorse for his crime.

TheLadyEvenstar · 07/08/2009 11:19

I wonder how many of you would want their child/father/uncle etc to die in prison if he had done the same so many years ago..and how many of you would be wanting to get them released for the dying days? personally i know which i would want.

edam · 07/08/2009 11:19

Tired - I've always wondered why the authorities didn't take Ernest Saunders back to prison when he had that miraculous recovering from supposed Alzheimers'.

edam · 07/08/2009 11:19

recovery

edam · 07/08/2009 11:20

If he had done his time, he'd have been out years ago and this wouldn't be an issue.

scottishmummy · 07/08/2009 11:22

yes he is dying,yes he looks emaciated and ill.that however does not and should not detract from fact that he is a violent criminal,who undertook a premeditated criminal act

this sentimentality because he is ill, is misplaced.being ill does not atone for one's actions

would you feel sad and want ian huntley to be let out of prison to die at home. would you be moved by his sad face?

Tiredmumno1 · 07/08/2009 11:22

Lol edam, you see what is it with this country and the government, they cant seem to make a decent decision between them. I dont see anything wrong with temporary release, but to just release without considering that is a bit wrong.

Original poster

wannaBe · 07/08/2009 11:24

tle I used those people as an example. It could be argued that anyone who is about to die is not a danger to society. Therefore could it not be argued that any criminal who is dying should be freed before the event so they can be sure to die with their family by their side?

Ronnie Biggs is still a criminal, in the same way as Myra Hindley/rose west are. No the crimes may not be comparible but they are all still serving sentences for their crimes. Therefore why should one only have compassion for one and not the others?

OP posts:

MadameCastafiore · 07/08/2009 11:25

So, think about your son getting caught up with the wrong type of people.

They go tooled up one night to rob a petrol station or such and the cashier is hit over the head by one of your son's new friends.

The cashier sustains a head injury that causes him pain and suffering for the next 7 years when he is then knocked down by a bus!

Is it now your son's responsibility, should he also be put in trial for injuring the cashier?

mayorquimby · 07/08/2009 11:26

yes but our justice system shouldn't be based on the wants of the criminals families.
i'm sure lots of murderers families want them out right now, doesn't mean we do it.
also i don't see how the length of time elapsed since the crime has any relevance.
every day he was on the run and living it up in rio was a conscious decision on his part not to face justice. it's not as though he has served a significant sentence and has now been reformed and admitted remorse.
he flaunted his evasion of the law for years.
yes he may have been very young when he committed the initial crime. he then spent his youth,middle-age and eventually old age absconding from responsibility and justice for his crimes. i don't see why he deserves compassion and release, he's spent his life living off his criminal notoriety and avoiding his punishment.

MadameCastafiore · 07/08/2009 11:27

No I could not bring myself to hold the hand of a murderer in their dying moments - even my compassion does not go that far - but no human has been killed by Ronnie Biggs as far as I am aware.

mayorquimby · 07/08/2009 11:29

"Is it now your son's responsibility, should he also be put in trial for injuring the cashier?"

for the initial assault,yes without a doubt.

of course not for the sbus hitting them, although i assume you are addressing the confusion have over the train drivers death from cancer and peoples assertions that Biggs is responsible for manslaughter.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 7