to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

"Those ignorant prejudices and shallow snobbish motives are the driving force, the primary motive and the raison d-etre of private education though"

I don't agree. This is a wildly bizarre statement.

I think we all form our opinions partially on the basis of our own life experiences. Partially. Unless we are completely insentient, that is.

But ti don't think it renders my arguments any less cogent or considered. Rather cheap of you to imply that.

There is still a difference between a bad education and a better one, even if you do get the qualifications. I think it is likely my DSs will come out of sec school with their 52 A-grade Alevels, as they all do, and get into university. But my DS is currently being taught Shakespeare by a woman who is physcially incapable of making any remark about any feature in any play without adding 'and make sure you do one of them in the exam cos it counts for 5 marks.' She truely teaches exams not English lit.

Schooling is miserable today -- to the extent that even the social injustice of a private-public divide is knocked into second place.

'Those ignorant prejudices and shallow snobbish motives are the driving force, the primary motive and the raison d-etre of private education though '

No. Really, no. I honstly don't think that applies to any of the parents I know.

I think it does actually.

I was raised in a happy family and went to a small school. Guess what? That is what my son is getting.

You were (apparently) raised in an unhappy family and sent to a private boarding school (where it sounds like you were not very happy) - so obviously you think the best thing is the exact opposite of your experience.

They sound rather like mine greeny!

Thing is, I think the prospectuses - of an okay decent private school (which is by no means all of them) aren't saying 'here, look at all the lovely middle class children' but 'here, look at the facilities, look at our tailored curriculum, look at our sports fields, look at our results, look at our science blocks, look how hard we work, look how we don't do SATs, look at what we offer which is different to the state system'

Some independents do offer something different to the state schools. That's why people go to them. Some state schools offer much more too than some crappy smug private schools too.

I liked it earlier when we were about to come up with a whole new education system. Let's do that again.

A lot of it boils down to people saying "We're paying because we want the best." (Some main subsets of which are: my child is too bright/sensitive/dyslexic/black/vegetarian to thrive in The Awful Comprehensive.) But most people (aside from a minority who don't value education) want "the best". Nobody ever says "well, I want a mediocre education for my child because he's a rather unimaginative plodder and a bit of a thug."

I know this isn't what people mean, but they must realise it comes over this way.

They do therefore realise that state schools are not packed with thugs and unimaginative plodders. That they do, in fact, contain Children Just Like Yours. And if it wasn't for the private schools, they'd contain even more Children Just Like Yours.

Sorry to spell this out, but it does seem to come as something of a revelation to some people.

I don't know how these misconceptions will ever be overcome. Maybe every child should have to do a term in a school outside their "chosen" sector. As a sort of exchange programme. It would be a bit like the French exchange, with the same set-up: stay with a host family, try out some of the local food and the local lingo, experience several moments of hideous social embarrassment, cop off with someone you'll never see again, and come away with a better understanding of the Funny Foreigners.

(I'm not entirely serious, before anybody starts blowing a gasket...)

Morloth - I think you're being rude.

'I think we all form our opinions partially on the basis of our own life experiences'

Of course. I'm sorry you've met such a lot of rotten people.

I went to 12 different schools in fact, I won't go into it all because it's a diversion

but the motives I am citing for parents in the main who send their children to private school are entirely different from the ones my parents were driven by. And who says I was unhappy at school? It was a damn sight better than being at home

but none of this is as relevant to the debate as you would like to make it. My views aren't those of an angry child, easy though I have made it for you to paint them as such.

Au contraire, I have met many wonderful people

Argumentative ahundredtimes sometimes they are the same thing.

I didn't bring it up Greensleeves you clearly thought it was relevant to the debate.

I illustrated my agreement with 100x's point that there are always exceptions. And that is what my parents were in the private school - exceptions. You, on the other hand, appear to be depressingly typical.

I hate the social class guff that can surround public schools and we deliberately chose a school that is v like an old state grammar school. ALthough my old state grammar school had felt wool blazers and sons' private school has 100% polyester blazers that go pleasingly shiny with wear.

Some parents might choose to pay fees so their little boy can wear bloomers and a cap, but I think a fair number of them are genuinely interested in their child's education. Not just the exam results. I'm sure my son could have got v good A level results at his old comp. But the education they were offering lacked rigour and breadth.

But anyway.

I don't know how long ago you were at school GS ( and I'm sorry you had such a shit time, nobody deserves to feel unwanted. I deal with that with my foster kids and it is corrosive, I know) but things have changed I think.
For a start, day schools really are not that snobbish, and lots of us are first time buyers. In fact most of my kids friends' parents went to state school, the same as me and DH.
True, I don't think any of them came from such disadvantaged circumstances as me, but many are from ordniary working families.
I worried a lot when I first signed on the dotted line that the middle classes would be truly dreadful but I have been pleasantly surprised. They are just normal folk. And I have honestly never been made to feel more included despite the fact that I have the wrong accent and background.

We could do an exchange programme UQD!

You could come and see the school and confirm in your mind that I don't send my children to a school because I'm too terrified / they are too sensitive to go to in the state system but I'm chosing something other because I like it and I can afford to do so. I could come to yours and see that there are lots of children like mine at your state school. Then I'll say, 'yes I know that' and we'll stare blankly at each other for a bit, have a cup of tea and talk about books instead.

I don't believe for a moment that this school is all about snobbery.

Can I come?

I promise not to bite anyone

yawn

what a pithy and incisive contribution zazizoma

Of course everyone wants the best they can get UQD. And depending on how much money you have, how good or bad the local private and public options are, how important other priorities are (like having to save for university, or staying with friendship groups) and they make an overall decision for their child. Because we are parents we have to do what is best in that particular situation. Sometimes it would mean choosing private.

Just out of info, do most of you have sec age children? My experience is that the frustrations of state schooling don't hit till then.

Greensleeves "You, on the other hand, appear to be depressingly typical." Of private school parents? I don't think I have said otherwise. I really am someone who is paying through the nose because I think my son is getting something better than what he would get at the local state school (both academically and socially). I really do fit the stereotype, and that is just fine.

The problem is that you think everyone is just like me. It simply isn't the case.

When my son went to a comp, he was taught Shakespeare for 2 years and nobody once mentioned a metre of verse or iambic pentameter. When I mentioned it to his English teacher at a parents evening, she said it wasn't in the curriculum.

I ended up having to buy him Fenton's book and teach him it myself. And English isn't my thing at all.