to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

Here's a thought I'd like to sanity check (a bit of a conspiracy theory . . .)

It has to do with the weight of bursaries in the context of meeting the new public benefit requirement. The CC stated clearly when this all began that they would consider the school's means and other ways of providing benefit outside of bursaries.

One of the schools that failed didn't provide full bursaries, but they did demonstrate public benefit by opening their facilities and teaching staff to the public.

I can't see an Eton wanting to open up their premises, but they may be in a position to meet a high bursary expectation.

Any connection to the change in CC policy?

Greenslaves- any sympathy for my black friend who says that her (educated middle class black) friends who send their kids to state schools in London regret it big time so her little black boy is tucked away in PS doing very well?

None whatsoever

and it's sleeves, not slaves

Greensleeves - sorry you were sounding a bit down and out so it must have been a Freudian slip .

lol. It's a new collective noun

'look at that paffluence of mothers in the school car park, adjusting their children's boaters'

I think there are some parents in private education who have made the decision for exactly the reason Greeny says. It is ignorance and fear.

But, of course, it is by no means everyone.

Greensleeves- well i have a lot of sympathy for her not playing altruism with her son's future when the numbers are stacked against her and her son. Selfish maybe? Wise and prudent, probably

Does anyone on this thread think that by going to a private school you will have removed the threat of eating disorders, drugs or alcohol abuse or other teenage issues from your child's life?

I don't, for one. I went to the private school which absolutely thrived on all of the above, until it got closed down, that is.

100x that is my primary grievance against the existence of independent schools - they allow parents to give into their ignorance and fear and pass it on, thereby creating a whole new generation of children for whom the notion of social class is taken as read and who start their adult lives with ingrained prejudices which are harmful both to themselves, to others and to society as a whole.

It saddens me that people are so horrified by the idea of exposing their children to a broad social mix - and let's face it, it's the "lower orders" they're keen to avoid" that they are prepared to pay for segregation. And it's a disgrace in modern society that a system exists which allows them to do so.

It could not be more divisive.

Greeny- my friend tells me that expectations for her boy in the state sector are low, his role models and comapny would not be that great either....and yes, she will buy her way out and give her boy a chance. How can we argue with that. I think Obama's mom scrimped and saved and sent him to private school and he still got caught up with the wrong company for a bit didn't he. Then the education (home and school) kicked in and rescued him.

ahundredtimes "Does anyone on this thread think that by going to a private school you will have removed the threat of eating disorders, drugs or alcohol abuse or other teenage issues from your child's life?"

I don't think anyone has said that have they? I don't think money protects from those things at all, but it probably does make getting help a lot easier.

Trouble is, you have to drill down into people's RL situation before you pass judgement...and then you understand what a big decision this can be for some. Worse is that you and your kids will have to live with it for the rest of their lives.

No one believes paying for school keeps any socail ill at bay. We all know of the dangers for our children.
And I really don't recognise myself as someone afraid of the lower orders. That would mean no contact with all my family for a starter for ten. Oh and all my foster children.

Greensleeves - by peddling these stereotypes you are showing yourself to be narrowminded and thus undermining your ideologies which I do to some extent agree with.

plenty of people do well from "bog-standard" local state schools, several of my friends have PhDs via that route

it's largely scare-mongering about the lack of education in state schools, a bright child will generally do well in any school as long as they have a dedicated and supportive family

and the standard of education in many private schools is money for old rope to put it mildly

people aren't paying for academic excellence, they're paying for segregation from people from different socio-economic backgrounds and to have their children laminated against what they see as the undesirable elements of society

Greensleeves, but what do you make of the point that for very many people the attraction of going private is simply better educational standards, not any social values whatsoever? So what if some people make the choice for bad reasons.

Some people have bad reasons for their actions -- not hot news. Why should the motives of a sub-set derail the whole discussion?

My firend tells me her son has real life contact with diverse community outside school and when he is at school she wants him to bust his nuts in the best class that she get her little black boy into...what am i suppose to tell her when I can see that she is trying to get him on the front row.

x-post. Plenty of people are precisely paying for acadmic excellence. How can you just assert that to be false?

Social class doesn't come into the equation at all for me. Our decision will be based on knowledge not ignorance (remember my DH with the head full of stats - but we also are looking carefully into the non-academic aspects of secondary schools).

Having had DD in a private junior school for various reasons, we are considering state comp, state grammar and private. I know we are extremely lucky to have both the money and a bright enough DD to have all these options. The one thing that doesn't come into it is social class.

I tell a lie. We're a bit put off the nearest private school cos its HMC and we're not sure whether it may be a bit too into rugger and cadet stuff.

Greensleeves "people aren't paying for academic excellence, they're paying for segregation from people from different socio-economic backgrounds and to have their children laminated against what they see as the undesirable elements of society"

And that is everyone is it? Seems to me that you should be quite happy about that.

Your post implies that a state education is as good as a private one so really it is just keeping all those nasty snobs away from your kid's isn't it?

All societies are divisive, show me one single human society throughout all of history which hasn't been?

I work with the world as it is, and as I said if that means buying my kid something better then I will.

Thing is Greeny, I think you're right but I don't think it represents an attitude that ALL people who use private schools share. Genuinely not.

No, it doesn't make me happy Morloth - I think they are doing their own children a disservice as well as everybody else. I've nothing against children, regardless of how prejudiced their parents are.

'plenty of people do well from "bog-standard" local state schools, several of my friends have PhDs via that route'

I'm a state-ed PhD myself, as it happens. Lots of us about. Common as muck.

"they allow parents to give into their ignorance and fear and pass it on, thereby creating a whole new generation of children for whom the notion of social class is taken as read and who start their adult lives with ingrained prejudices which are harmful both to themselves, to others and to society as a whole."

I don't believe for a moment that is why the majority of parents who go private do so. However, it IS the case that there are schools that ingrain that kind of snobbery in the children that go to them. Anyone remember that documentary where they took a group of kids from an inner London comp and sent them to Winchester (I think it was) for a fortnight? The assumptions the children at the public school had about the 'chavs', as they called anyone who went to the comp, were quite unpleasant.
My brothers went to a minor public school where they referred to the cleaning staff as 'skivs' .

Maybe instead of testing schools' public benefit by how many bursaries they have etc the Charity Commissioners should be looking at what sort of attitudes and prejudices the kids who go to them pick up there. Because some private schools are very much worse than others in this respect.

True 100x, of course I can't say every single family - not all. My parents for example sent me to boarding school on a full scholarship because they couldn't stand the sight of me and needed my room for one of their adopted children.

Those ignorant prejudices and shallow snobbish motives are the driving force, the primary motive and the raison d-etre of private education though - those are the prejudices and fears private schools play on in their glossy prospectuses and that is what keeps those schools open. The odd family working the system in a less conventional way is really a small red herring in the main debate about private and state education.

Greensleeves "True 100x, of course I can't say every single family - not all. My parents for example sent me to boarding school on a full scholarship because they couldn't stand the sight of me and needed my room for one of their adopted children."

Well that certainly explains a lot.