to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

private schools offere a lot more than just the national curriculum to their kids. if they can then offer those facilities to some kids whose parents could not in a millionyears afford the fees, then that is a worthy cause imo. far more worthy than animal charities but they are my bugbear
what isnt a worthy charity is my kids state school. they offer the national curriculum, along with a good helping of bullying, and bad management. then have the gall to demand the kids spend a fortune in pta fundraising activities designed to empty my wallet, so they can have more money. i have yet to see something useful bought with the pta money. and i dont include a seven thousand pound dosimeter for the swimming pool as money well spent. i still have to pay for their swimming lessons, despite having helped pay for the installation of the bloody pool over the last 8 years. and no, my kids still cant swim. also, the state school seems to think that electric whiteboardsa re more of a necessity than extra staff tohelp children with extra learning needs. neither are they willing to spend money on fans to ensure a comfortable learning environment for the children in classrooms. apparently a measurement of forty degrees celsius is considered acceptable in the classroom.
sigh. rant over.

Someone want to spell out the advantages to a school of charitable status? Tax breaks perhaps? exemption from certain laws/regulations?

If it was just about being able to use the word 'charity' they wouldn't be so desperate to hang onto it.

Hatwoman,

You are not subsidising school places. Apart from your TV License, all other taxes go into one big pot.

I think you will find that independent school parents are paying more taxes per capita than the rest of the population, so they are subsidising the VAT savings.

And at the same time, paying for state school places through their taxes.

If children came out of the independent sector, your taxes would have to go up. The tax saving thing is so illogical. It is the public sector that is saving because of the private sector.

Can I take it that private schools do not get any actual money from the government at all.

KingRolo - yes, that's a good argument for why people who use public schools should not be given tax breaks in order for them to do so.

However, the charitable status thing is completely different. If independent school meet the criteria of the charity commission in terms of advancing education (note "advancing education", not "advancing education for all"), demonstrating public benefit, and not making a profit, why should they NOT be allowed to register as charities?!

2 sugars,

As I posted earlier, the Charity Commission allows organisations to become a charity according to their purpose.

One of those allowed purposes is 'the advancement of education' - which is the single purpose of a school.

all these parents who could not otherwise afford it...erm, we have these things called state schools.

interesting that someone called this "class hatred" - that seems to acknowledge that the benefit of charitable status goes to the middle and upper classes (otherwise why would it be "class hatred" to want to get rid of it?). It's not hatred - it's just a view that there's better things to spend my tax money on than subsidising the choices of the middle and upper classes

onagar - no they get no money from the state apart from being excempt from VAT.

Onagar,

Independent schools do not pay income/corporation tax because they do not make a profit.

The tax that we are talking about is VAT on school fees.

Do people really believe as a tax payer you subsidise private schools, how funny.
I currently subsidise your tax credits, child benefit, maternity services, nursery places, schools, elderly care.
And you let me not pay the VAT on text books so I can keep my job by having 19 children in the class instead of the 4 that could pay increased fees.

Stitch, I hope your child's school has taught them punctuation ....

It's not your tax money, hatwoman. Your tax money goes to paying for single parents to not work.

2sugars, punctuation????????????? i should be so lucky. they came out of reception, with exactly the same knoweledge the went into it with, but worse table manners

[when i;m ranting, i cant punctuate, or spell, and barely remember to stick to topic ]

It is not class hatred. I don't want to get rid of private schools. I was educated in one and have paid for some of my dd education, but I do not think a historical link with a leper hospital justifies charitable status for what is a private money making buisness.
If small independant schools are not making money, maybe they should look more carefully at how they run their business.

yanbu

re. national trust - i used to feel teh same way but i paid for a years membership and have to say theydo a great job! yes teh inbred aristo arsing about propped up by teh nt does get my goat but generally the garden ad landscapes they maintain are wonderful places to visit and simply wouldn't exist otherwise.

But the ones with charitable status do not make a profit - that's the whole point!

AppleandMosesMummy - I think you'll find most of us also subsidise our own tax credits, child benefit, maternity services, nursery places, schools and elderly care.

You could get a job in the state sector couldn't you?

I'm so sorry for that. I hadn't read the whole thread.

I think that's the point though Zanzibar - most independent schools are NOT money-making in the sense that there are any profits. The fees are set at a level that covers the costs (okay, so the costs of good facilities and low teacher-pupil ratios).

Personally I am happier that public schools are regulated by the charity commission than just allowed to do what they like.

Right for all those who so despise private schools. Lets see what would happen if they all shut tomorrow.

Most of the private school kids would just go down the road to the few remaining state grammar schools and compete for places in entrance exams with kids whose parents cannot afford private.

Alternatively, the parents of private school kids would take the fees they saved and use it to outbid the other poorer parents for houses in the catchement area of nice school. Many bright state school kids would be pushed out of good state schools as a result and end up in failing state schools. Not a good outcome for anyone.

It would be interesting to see how much of an outcry there would be then from the leftie liberal champagne socialist right on literatti of Hampstead. Most of whom either sent their kids private some years ago, went to private school themselves or wangled a place at a top state school to salve their concience.

The vast majority of schools are non-profit.

It is not an income tax issue but a VAT one.

And FTR, I have just worked out how much VAT is saved on the school fees of my five children. It is less than I pay income tax, and the only reason I work is to support my children's education.

If my children were in state schools, I would not work, so there would be not tax receipts from me - and there would be the cost to the state of educating them.

Do the math.

Do you know what I would actually rather starve (or work in Tesco's) than work in the state sector but that's a whole different debate.
And many many people take out a great deal more than they will ever put back.

When the credit crunch kicked in the first thing the government did was reduce VAT, so it seems to me that in terms of revenue sources the government doesn't value it.
And that is the only benefit I know of that charity status affords us.

ABetadad - some good arguments but most of them just don't apply outside London.

As with all schools, private schools vary hugely.

Some quite possibly are taking the piss with their charity status.

Our local independent school does very well I think.

It has a theatre which is regularly used by local state schools & other groups.

Various sports clubs use its gym/sports fields/tennis courts.

It has a decent bursary system, and has links with various local organisations such as care homes etc.

We don't go there, so I've no bias. It's generally very well regarded locally.

Rolo - There are plenty of area's outside of London that still have 11+ area's and catchment areas with houses starting at £500k for a three bed semi, with the average wage in the area being £25k