to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

{grin] Ah I see. Sorr, I missed that. How interesting. What country was it?

" Or are you just paying, like me, to escape teachers with PGCEs? "

swedesinsunglasses- i am paying because I want to give the little ones the best possible chance and prefer to risk wasting my money. It is that simple for many of us. Even though I sympathise with the sentiments expressed by UQD et al.

" Or are you just paying, like me, to escape teachers with PGCEs? "

swedesinsunglasses- i am paying because I want to give the little ones the best possible chance and prefer to risk wasting my money. It is that simple for many of us. Even though I sympathise with the sentiments expressed by UQD et al.

It seems that quite a few of us would like to be able to abolish private schools yet retain independent schools. Keep these good schools running but fund access for those who want it.

The trouble with that is of course its hard to see how the admissions policy would work.

Heres an off-the-wall alternative suggestion. How about independent schools should be required to admit a proportion of looked-after children? The funding would be met by the state, being in loco parentis? [school which can already afford bursaries would continue to do so in addition]

TDiddy, what makes me nervous about your suggestion of abandoning the independent schools is the current lack of interest in and support of methodological diversity within the state system.

I would trust the approach of funding independents more than relying on an extensive reformulation of the state system, especially one that may challenge the socialist tendencies of the larger population.

By nationalising the independents rather than abolishing them you would keep the diversity, and then provide a procedure for the founding of new nationalised independents.

zazizoma - sorry, I didn'tr mean shutting them down; I meant nationalising them or funding them which amounts to the same thing.

Grimma, we seem to be on the same wavelength . . . but I don't see how your alternative suggestion resolves the issue of admissions.

GrimmaTheNome- your suggestion is good. there are many innovative things that can be done with a mixture of state and private funding such as: halving fees say and giving 50pc scholarship places to those who would otherwise not be able to go to such a school.

There are no ideal solutions or magic wands that would instantly transform education for all. So the purists will have to accept half measures in the right direction or hold up progress.

Great, TDiddy, where do I sign?

Grimma, I don't think the admissions question would really ever go away; it even is an issue for state schools currently.

If groups of parents did not get a place in the school of their choice, then they could always start their own under the nationalised independent scheme. Or the school they wanted could get the funds to expand, just as state schools do today.

Admissions could be a ;

1. exam based 2)means tested 3)lottery 4)postcode

or some mixture thereof

Look at what Watford Grammar achieves with only 20pc selection intake (sorry to harp on about Watford grammar)

It didn't, it was an alternative. A heterogeneous mix of paying existing pupils with a leavening of some of the most needy of the state sector. Not a means for the not-quite-affluent enough pushy parent to get places.

(that was in response to zaz 13:44:14 )

It would sure be helpful if Mumsnet could provide numbering on our posts! Thanks, Grimma.

we on the centre left are too timid about doing deals with the independent sector to move this issue on. Too scared at explaining to the left. Blair backed down on this issue altho' i haven't followed on whether those City academies were successful?

Maybe this agenda is behind the warning shot fired by the charities commission.

Watford Grammar School for Boys Admissions
The Governing Bodies of the two schools have determined the following admissions criteria for entry into Year 7 in September 2010. In the event of over subscription, these criteria will apply in allocating places at each school.

COMMUNITY PLACES
Looked After Children.
Applicants whose permanent home address is nearest to the school to which they have applied (18 places, 10% of the total admissions).
Applicants with a sister / brother enrolled at the school to which they have applied, excluding sisters / brothers who first entered the school in the Sixth Form (Year 12 or Year 13).
Places will then be allocated to applicants living closest to the school.
SPECIALIST PLACES
5. Applicants selected on the basis of aptitude for music as measured by the school's assessment procedures (18 places, 10% of total admissions).

6. Applicants selected by academic ability as measured by the school?s assessment procedures, in merit order (45 places, 25% of total admissions)

-----------

SO Watford Grammar selects 35% of its pupils according to ability and then the sibling rule will bump this some way as brothers and sisters are often broadly similar aptitude wise. Also houses within reasonable chance of catchment for Watford Grammar are £££ so this further bumps the forms of artificial selection.

It's a long way from my understanding of comprehensive and it's certainly not open to all.

But if we go back to the main point people should stop delluding themselves: Parents who use PSs are subsidising the national purse rather than the other way round. If you want to have a sensible discussion with those parents you don't start with this ridiculous assertion that they are being subsidised!!!!!

swedesinsunglasses - okay my percentage was not correct but most of the students are not selected. We need MORE schools like it as part of the solution to access!

This is the table for contextual value added scores in Herts state schools Watford Grammars are by no measure the best.

Those added value scores don't bear up to much analysis though (unfortunately). My DH loves analysing data and went through the ones for our local secondaries - the scores simply don't reflect reality because some of the criteria are too arbitrary.

And how do they compare to the private schools that many of us use by this measure?

These add value measures are useful but you can't focus purely on add value and not take into account absolute measures?

Here are the A level scores for schools in Herts - my town's two state comprehensives beat Watford
Grammar at A level attainment. And my sons' independent beats all of them, even though the state schools have artificially boosted their scores with points from A level general studies.

swedesinsunglasses- many MNers will come and live near you. Are you trying to push up house prices in your area?

One extremely good private school in our area falls way off the bottom of those tables because they don't do the standard maths GCSE, they do a harder one. Which counts for nowt.

TDiddyisaMan - They don't need boosting. But if you want to live somewhere and not have to worry about catchment areas then Harpenden is your place.

The three schools are:

Sir John Lawes (Comprehensive)
Roundwood Park (comprehensive)
St George's School (selective by faith as a priority)

There are no bad/failing schools and people do tend to go to their nearest.

All the primary schools are good too.

The town feels like a proper community.

Gimma - Yes that's true of most public schools. My sons' school do a lot of IGCSEs and they count for nothing. And of course there is no measure for STEP papers and the like.