to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

grimma - oh, don't start me on faith schools - I'm no more a fan than you are. Let's not divert this thread...

Slugs - you keep saying they aren't qualified. They aren't qualified to teach in a state school, but they are qualified to teach in the schools in which they're teaching. I don't know anyone at my sons' school who's unhappy with the standard of teaching - far from it in fact.

They're not what the state defines as qualified in this country at the moment.
My mum taught in the state system for years and didn't have a PGCE. I imagine she was qualified to teach by her years of experience - not sure how it would work if she wanted to go back into it now after retirement.

I agree with Grimma about the relative divisiveness of fee-paying, especially when you consider scholarships and bursaries.

The most divisive requirements are those such as those of the JFS, where you're either born into it or not. And THAT is state funded. Economics is infinitely more fluid than race.

she wouldn't be able to kathy

same thing happened to my dad

But no one has to pay for education. Paying is just another choice. No, its not one everyone can make, but neither is espousing a religion - some can, some can't.

Have you any idea, swedesinsunglasses, what is involved in gaining Qualified Teacher Status? It's not just the PGCE, but there's also classroom experience while training and a year or more of suprevised teaching, observations and reaching of professional standards to pass on top of that. In addition to that, teachers with QTS are required, as part of their ongoing registration, to attend a set number of hours of continuing professional development every year (That's all those INSET days everyone complains about).

To suggest that all this training and ongoing development is somehow silly and not really necessary leads me to question just how interested parents who send their children to private schools actually are.

Sazizoma - Quite.

Greensleeves. Well I beg to differ. My sons' teachers are teachers. Of course they are. Hah at them not being teachers because they haven't got a PGCE.

teachers they may be, but qualified teachers they are not.

UQD - you can, however, be a university lecturer, a museum curator or indeed, a writer without professional qualifications.
The PGCE system is a useful shortcut for schools which don't have the facilities to train on the job to ensure a minimum standard in certain aspects of the job. However you should not confuse what works for the state system right now with what makes a good teacher per se.

Actually, they don't even qualify as teaching assistants.

Actually kathy, universities are now investing in PGCEs for all their new teaching staff. I'ts one of the things I'm working on at the moment.

AFAIK all the teachers at DDs private school are fully qualified teachers (PGCE) and that this is the norm rather than the exception nowadays. They do all the lesson planning etc etc that you'd expect any teacher to do.

UQD, I would like to be very clear about where I think we differ.

"There should be more flexible options than a one-size-fits-all state provision. (I've never been in favour of that.) I simply don't feel - and don't see how anyone can feel - that we live in a society aspiring to fairness if the discriminatory barrier of paying for education is in place."

I'm in complete agreement your statement above. I don't feel that fee-paying for education is ideal. I have made two suggestions thus far about removing the fee-paying issue; 1) the state funding independent schools, 2) vouchers. Both approaches would have the same ultimate result.

I absolutely do not agree with the assertion that I am not doing my part for society by choosing to put my dc in an independent. I find this perspective fascinating as I do not understand it.

We can either look to the state system for the solution, and try to adjust that to meet the demands of our society, or we can look to the independent schools to meet those demands and find a way to fund them. I think the second approach is much more sensible, as the independent system already has flexibility and addresses diverse requirements, and only requires resolving the relatively straight-forward issue of funding.

Furthermore, I believe I am in fact that I am aiding society by putting my dc in an independent.

Firstly, I am putting more money into the overall education system, as described earlier today.

Secondly, I am allowing independent institutions to exist as alternatives to the state system which 1) highlight the need for diversity in methodology which is currently missing and 2) offer demonstrated methods and innovations that could be used in any state education reform.

please excuse mangled first sentence of previous post, ds wants to go outside . . .

Really Slug? The places where dh and I work certainly are not.
There is PGCert in Academic Practice and various equivalents but these are not seen as essential (or indeed, useful) by the majority of teaching staff.

Well, I don't disagree with the state system looking towards private schools for successful ideas and vice-versa. Great, if they can be put into practice for everyone... But they aren't.

I don't claim the PGCE is perfect, but I don't think there is any actual harm in having one central qualification for all teachers, just as there is for all lawyers and accountants.

(It might be good if they brought one in for writers! And attach a salary scale to it as well!)

This thread has become increasingly diverted from the original question of whether private schools should be charities - and I am aware that I have done my fair share of contributing towards the diversion. So maybe I should take a back seat for a bit and see how it pans out.

I've interview NQT's who have been sacked from every job they ever held in the private sector and one for sexual harassment but they are now employed in state sector schools. I was able to ask questions of referee's that state sector would not be allowed to ask, needless to say they didn't get through our doors.
Now maybe they've turned over a new leaf and are now competent employees or maybe not, it's very hard to get rid of bad teachers in the state sector I understand.

In order to assist you in your valiant task UQD, I will conclude my previous diatribe with ergo, independent schools actually are charities performing a public benefit simply by existing.

Ah but UQD, assuming it did not involve a salary scale, knowing you you would get stroppy and refuse to do the qualification (suppose they introduce it now) and then suddenly you would no longer count as a writer despite having published however many books.

The point I'm trying to make is really just that I'm surprised people put so much store on qualifications when they are really very time- and place-specific.
Has anyone read 'Small Island' and if so do you remember the bit where the heroine arrives in England thinking she is going to get a teaching job and is informed her Caribbean qualifications don't count?

UnquietDad - there is not one central qualification for accountants. There are quite a few - ACA, ACCA, CIMA, CIPFA, AAT, and probably some more that I have forgotten. All administered by their own independent bodies.

There have been some moves to merge some of these bodies, but none have gone through yet.

Not sure about lawyers.

guys- as long as there is an option to pay for something which is perceived as better then some will whether or not it is better. So i think that you either:

1)Abolish all private schools

OR

2)give us all school vouchers increasing access to the PSs

Both solutions have issues but obviously option 1) is more egalitarian. I have also pointed out that I have seen option 1) in action- I am a product of option 1) and I still made it to Oxbridge and I am not particularly bright :-) My seven siblings all did well out of option 1) making it to very good universities round the world.

I think we would all be surprised by how well it would work if we had the courage and didn't mind paying a bit more tax to fund us all going back into the state sector.

TDiddy - How are you a product of private school abolition? Eh? Do you mean you and your siblings did OK with your state education?

I'm sure it's true you did OK, but clearly you don't feel your own children will do as well as they should at a state school? Otherwise, presumably you wouldn't pay? Or are you just paying, like me, to escape teachers with PGCEs?

swedesinsunglasses- earleir in the post I mentioned that I did my secondary schooling in a country where the govt nationalised all private schools. Some of the jesuits who were running some excellent schools departed but some stayed on. We were all doing UK O'levels and A'levels and the results didn't suffer. Entrance to these schools was based on common entrance exam.

The schools increased diversity/access. My dad and uncle had had to turn down places at the school i went to as it was just too expensive when they were kids. Yet one generation, all eight of my dad children went there and went on to very good universities! But now I am sending mine private. All very crazy.