Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to worry because I can't afford to privately educate my children?

380 replies

LaydeeStardust · 27/06/2009 20:47

I hope this makes sense-I've had wine!

We've got 4 bright and happy children,aged 4 and up.

DS2 is 14, and is apparently extremely bright and attends our local inner city state school which gets average results

Both his own school teachers and two friends who teach at different private schools have told us that he should attend a private school to give him the best possible chances in life.

One of his teachers actually said we are letting him down by not sending him to a private school

We earn too little to pay for private education ourselves so he'd have to apply for an assisted place (we both work in social services and health)

we honestly believe in the state system,but maybe we can't really say that because we don't earn enough choose?

DS2's done his own research and is now worrying that he won't be able to get into a good uni, or get a good job etc if he doesnt go to a private school....and I don't know how to reassure him!!

I'd be so interested to hear other peoples' views on this-both me and DH went to state schools then uni, but if anyone feels I'm living in cloud cuckoo land to believe that our children will achieve whatever they want without a private education please tell me!!!

Thanks in advance!!

OP posts:
zanz1bar · 28/06/2009 22:06

I see friends that have careers they have so little interest in, just because of the presumption that they should follow that path by school and family.

violethill · 28/06/2009 22:10

I think whether you thrive in a high powered job or fester in a dull job has more to do with other factors than whether you went to private school or not quattro.

It's quite possible to go to a state school and thrive in a high flying career, and quite possible to go to a private school and end up hating your job, or doing a dull job. School is actually a relatively small part of the overall picture.

On balance, having used both sectors, I think a good state school is probably the optimum these days, bearing in mind that we live in the 21st century and the old boys' network syndrome doesn't exert the influence it used to. But then I am fortunate that I have the choice to pay if I want, and also made sure I live in an area with great state schools. I feel sorry for people who don't feel they have a choice - be it lack of choice financially to choose private, or lack of choice with state options.

Quattrocento · 28/06/2009 22:10

I heard you the first time - my point is that it isn't always like that

thedolly · 28/06/2009 22:12

zanz1 - just out of interest are you and Baskingseals first generation private school IYKWIM?

whereeverIlaymyhat · 28/06/2009 22:12

The point that is often missed in these debates is that if every child became a doctor who would empty the bins ?
Whether we like it or not schools are not equal and nor would they ever be allowed to be because then people might start looking around them and realising what a rubbish lot they have.
No far better to offer the plebs the odd french lesson in some areas and let people think education has come along way because now their little Johnny can take on £50k worth of debt to get an ology and work in a call centre, whilst the real power and influence remains as it always was in the hands of the rich ie the private school kids.

Quattrocento · 28/06/2009 22:16

xposted with you violet. I was not arguing that independent schools = high flying careers = enjoyment of same.

I was simply making the point that not everyone who has been independently educated with a high flying career hates it.

In fact, my take on people with highflying careers is that enjoyment is usually essential - without that zest and enthusiasm people usually don't have the drive they need to perform and can quickly get weeded out.

Therefore there might be some job-insecurity anxieties going on with Z's friends ...

zanz1bar · 28/06/2009 22:24

thedolly we went to a provincial private school but some of our family went to the big name schools.
Maybe being second/third/fourth generation gives me the perspective to see just how happily peoples lives pan out.

SomeGuy · 28/06/2009 22:27

The vast majority of children (93% nationally) go to state school. Therefore why should the vast majority of university places not be taken by state school pupils?

Well they are. When it comes to Oxbridge however, things are a little bit different.

But is it really surprising?

No matter how smart you are, if you're studying at say The Ridings: www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/sad-tidings-for-the-ridings-as-school-dubbed-bri tains-worst-is-closed-down-398358.html

you've got fuck all chance of achieving anything other than a criminal record.

A proportion of state school children are destroyed by the system.

Then there are the parents who don't care about education. These kids also have no chance - and they'll all be at state school. Again a minority, but it's another proportion knocked out.

Then there is the fact that private schools have better facilities and smaller class sizes. This will tend to produce better outcomes.

Then there's discipline. Private schools don't have to tolerate bad behaviour. They can kick you out as soon as look at you. It's very well documented that one or two trouble makers can destroy the education of an entire class.

Then there are higher expectations. Many kids are capable of more, but due to a combination of the factors above, they are never stretched. Higher expectations lead to higher achievement.

Finally there's the fact of wealth - and education - begetting the same. You don't, generally speaking, get to be wealthy by sitting on your arse doing nothing. It takes hard work and dedication. So successful parents (i.e. those that can afford school fees) are likely to encourage their children to follow their path. You don't get to Oxbridge without either being very clever, or working very hard, and probably both.

So in fact something would be untoward if Oxbridge admissions were 93% from state schools. The fact that they are not is caused by the factors above.

Also - for most people this is simply a non-argument. Look at what a small percentage it actually relates to. And if you factor out London it's even smaller - here in South Yorkshire it's not 7%, more like 5%, and the affluent suburbanites of Sheffield account for most of that. In Barnsley I believe it's close to 0%.

Well not just London. In Surrey it's about 25%.

The prominence this so-called choice gets on here is nonsensically disproportionate, leading to guilt like that expressed by the OP. You'd think private school was something so germane to the vast majority of children's welfare - like milk, or weaning, or play. In fact, it occupies a minority position on a par with Chicken Keepers.

Well possibly, but this website is clearly not representative of society. Most people don't buy their clothes from Boden or their food from Waitrose (in both cases, too expensive for most), but both are featured heavily here.

This website is not most people, or inner-city Sheffield, it's actually very middle class. And of course if you are a 'worrier', you are far more likely to be on a forum than not. Some people will still worry about this, even if they can't afford it (though affording is in some cases a matter of priorities: I know a single mother nurse in inner-city London who sends her son private. She can't really afford it, but does it because she sees that her friends have children who walk and talk like gangsters, and to her avoiding that is the most important thing in the world.)

thedolly · 28/06/2009 22:31

Thanks zanz1 - I'm just wondering how many first generation private school parents have made the same choice for their DC.

I thought you sounded a bit jaded .

SomeGuy · 28/06/2009 22:34

The point that is often missed in these debates is that if every child became a doctor who would empty the bins ?

This is something of a myth. A better-educated workforce improves GDP. And of course we've got plenty of room for improvement, just visit somewhere like Toys R Us to see what demotivated, poorly educated workers are like. We've got degree-educated immigrants from Poland doing bar work and the like, and by all accounts doing a very good job of it. The idea that we wouldn't want to improve our workforce too much because there'd be too many over-educated people chasing not enough work is wrong - bright people create jobs, just look at Stanford.

UnquietDad · 28/06/2009 22:34

Here is the link to regional statistics which I referred to, in case anyone is interested.

whereeverIlaymyhat · 28/06/2009 22:38

Ok if it's a myth why isn't the bar being raised ? Why in 2009 are kids still leaving school unable to read.
The teachers can dispute it all they like on here, both my DH's parents are retired department heads and both are horrified at the standard of my DC's maths, reading and writing yet the state school they are currently at consider them to be the brightest in their class and sats have them at a year above their actual age.

UnquietDad · 28/06/2009 22:41

SomeGuy - oh, I agree with you about the disproportionate middle-class/worrier axis. Although I think anyone who sends their child to private school can "afford" it. The definition of not being able to afford it is not doing it - unless someone else is paying.

The mistake many private school users make is to think that, because they have all, without exception, chosen their children's school, they assume (on some level) that everyone else has too.

It's very sad about The Ridings, although schools can be in Special Measures for all sorts of reasons. People mistakenly assume it's the Mark of Cain, whereas it can often just be because a school is achieving drastically below expectations and Special Measures are a way of getting them out of that.

I don't live in "inner city" Sheffield, btw

thedolly · 28/06/2009 22:47

Interesting reading UQD - any plans to further analyse them?

Quattrocento · 28/06/2009 22:47

Ah, UQD on the myth of parental choice again. You could choose to become catholic, could you not?

1dilemma · 28/06/2009 22:57

Ah yes but there are catholic schools in my LA that base their entrance criteria on when the child was baptised (ie how early) and determine whether you are in the parish or not according to how many months you were at the Church before the applications close.
Hence if you make that choice based round schools you need to be organised and quite selective yourself!

Also mumsnet does contain lots of Boden/Waitrose talkers but also lots of highly educated people on a recent thread it appeared to me that most were claiming postgrad qualifications (but I didn't count it just looked that way)

Quattrocento · 28/06/2009 23:04

Trillian, if you could post that on the TTC threads, it would be very helpful I feel.

Quattrocento · 28/06/2009 23:05

Sorry, meant Idilemma

1dilemma · 28/06/2009 23:10
Grin
UnquietDad · 28/06/2009 23:13

I don't think one could genuinely choose to become Catholic without believing it all.

Quattrocento · 28/06/2009 23:15

Oh gawd UQD

UnquietDad · 28/06/2009 23:16

You could pretend, obviously.

SomeGuy · 28/06/2009 23:19

Although I think anyone who sends their child to private school can "afford" it

Well it depends really. For some it's private school or a car/holiday/meal out occasionally. I think they're a minority though.

If you've got a six-figure household income, then you don't need to make major sacrifices to send your kids private. The question for them is more 'why would you not?' - few people choose to eat extra value sausages if they can comfortably afford nice ones. If private education were free, or so cheap that the cost is insignificant, it would be a different question - and to a minority of people the cost is insignificant.

Obviously these people are over-represented on the internet in general (to a lessening extent, as computer ownership becomes more-or-less universal), and on this site in particular.

I guess you wouldn't ask Bill Gates why he wastes his money on a yacht, and equally you could get a rather distorted worldview by reading all the Waitrose/private school/Boden posts on here.

UnquietDad · 28/06/2009 23:28

thedolly - well, I think the essential point makes itself, doesn't it? That the 7% figure is a national mean and that the distribution is wide.

I'm right that it is zero or almost zero in some places (Knowsley in Liverpool, South Tyneside, Barnsley in South Yorks). Most popular take-up is in affluent areas, with some in large cities which will have affluent pockets.

In other news, the Pope is Catholic !

I'd like to see data on some LAs like Blackburn and Leeds and Sheffield and Newcastle broken down further, to see if the stats fit my presumption that the majority of takers would come from the more affluent suburbs of those urban areas (where the state schools are pretty decent anyway).

Quattrocento · 28/06/2009 23:28

"If you've got a six-figure household income, then you don't need to make major sacrifices to send your kids private."

Now there's an assumption ...

One of my good chums has a six-figure income - has had for years - he is virtually bankrupt ...