To think toddler group shouldn't be handing out such anti nursery literature?

[Ebb]

I have recently started going to a toddler group, run in a church, which is, in general, lovely but today we were all handing print outs of 'Raising Babies' by Steve Biddulph entitled 'Should under 3's go to nursery?'

It basically suggests that babies under 1 shouldn't go to nursery at all. "Organize for your baby to be with a parent or Grandparent all the time except for occassional breaks - days off or evenings out - when you have a trusted and familiar babysitter."

When your child is one "up to one short day per week eg. 9-3 with a trusted and familiar carer. Ideally 1:1 but in a 1:3 ratio at most."

Further quotes include "Some children are not ready (for nursery) until three or more and group care can be upsetting and harmful for these children." and "*Remember - nurseries have become big business. Many nurseries never engage emotionally with their children."

I am lucky in the fact I take my Dc to work with me but a lot of parents don't have a choice and nurseries are the feasible option. Surely a toddler group shouldn't be putting more pressure and guilt on parents by handing out such cr@p?!

juuule, so long as that leaflet is just one out of many leaflets, some of which promote the opposite view eg just one out of many leaflets lying on a table. I did not get a sense from the OP whether that was in fact the case. In fact, I believe the Biddulph leaflets were being actively handed out. Quite different iMO.

The toddler group were handing out the one leaflet,maybe. If Ebb wanted leaflets showing the other side she would only need to call at the local library or baby clinic to pick up numerous leaflets to show that. I have never come across leaflets questioning nursery for under-3s in my area but plenty supporting it. The toddler group doesn't need to provide a balanced view just like my local children's centre doesn't. It's up to the individual to look around for information. Shouldn't be that way but that's how it seems to be regarding childcare.

they had an article about this in the family section in the guardian a few months ago that said that if an under two spent long hours in a nursery environment without a good attachment to a constant carer that they had higher levels of cortisone and were more prone to behavioural problems when they were older.

But if the nursery was for a shorter time and the attachment was good there was little or no difference to a child that stays at home or is with a good childminder.

Blueshoes - the woman at toddler group was handing them out to all the parents. I don't think I'd have had an issue if they'd just been left on the table by the 'sign in' book.

Ebb, how is this toddler group funded eg for biscuits, toys etc?

Maybe the woman at the toddler group read the book, had an epiphany and wanted to share with a wider audience?

Being aware of different viewpoints is no big deal, is it?

Then the woman at toddler group should have started a discussion about it. As I said before - passive aggressive to just hand them out to everyone. I'd have handed it straight back, and I was a SAHM when I did the toddler group thing.

Good strategy, TFM.

I would have loved to be at that discussion and put a few myths straight. But then it is not likely I would have attended that toddler group anyway, certainly not after they show their stripes and hand out ill-thought out propaganda.

Too busy being 'selfish' and working for the joy of it and 'dumping' my dcs with 'strangers' in ft nursery and all.

Noonki - I agree. There's such a huge difference between a 3 year old going to nursery, or an 18 month old there for a couple of days a week, and a 6 month old who is in nursery from when it opens to when it closes Monday to Friday.

Luckily, very few babies are in full time nursery that young, but I do worry about the effect it has on them. I think a lot of other nursery nurses do too.

dont expend too much energy "worrying" about babies in nursery i dont,neither do the other mums i know.

famine,war,poverty maybe give them a wee thought if you do so need to worry about other people babies.

My dcs attended nursery from 12 months' old. But they have lots of friends there who attended ft nursery from earlier, typically 6 months. These children are lovely and intelligent children now at school, with nothing them to distinguish them from children from a similar family background who were largely raised by SAHMs.

Scandinavian and lots of European countries use long hours nurseries from a young age. Sweden in particular has a long history going back decades. Now where are all these Swedish axe murderers?

Worry about improving the general state of nursery care in this country for those parents who need to use them for their babies. Worry about children who are being 'cared' for at home environments so emotionally and physically deprived nurseries would be a haven for. Don't worry about middle class babies in ft nursery with quality provision.

I would agree with scottishmummy that there is a better use of your worry time.

fwiw i imagine the nursery nurses would worry more if baby rooms weren't full with waiting list,as they'd be out on their arse no job.at my nursery staff use it for their children too

Blueshoes the toddler group charges a small fee in line with other toddler groups. I assume, as it's run in a church, that they don't hall hire fees.

In my experience with nurseries, I've found a lot of experienced nursery nurses move into nanny because of the money side of it. When I left the nursery I worked in for five years, I was earning £8000. I couldn't afford to move out of home. In the end I became a live in nanny for more money and less paperwork!

The nursery I worked in was rare as we had a 1:2 ratio for babies and we had an 18mth waiting list. Very few babies were in 8-5 five days a week and those that were appeared to be happy and contented.

Fine for them to hand it out, you can then take it or leave it. I agree with Biddulph that f/t nurseries are not the best for little babies. I think home care/childminders are far better for that age and so do many people.

What I dont understand is why people feel the need to tell mums who have their children in nurseries that it is wrong/dangerous/turning them into mini criminals or whatever the latest idea is.

I send my children to nursery. Other friends use childminders, others family, others stay at home. Not once do I feel the need or believe I have the right to tell other people that my way is right, to point out the negatives of their situation etc.

Do what is best for you - make your choices - but if others are happy with theirs then leave them to it. Mothers who put their children in nursery have not done so on some random whim - presumably they have thought about the options.

On another point - Im not entirely sure why nursery is always seen as so inherently different to a childminder. My nursery for example is held in a large house. Each room is for a different age group (and there are 5 different age groups). The baby room has the same main carers day in day out who work to make sure one of them is always there. There is an area for sleeping, an area for playing, a bathroom. The house has a kitchen. Each room has an area for eating and even from a young age the babies sit together around a table. There are never more than 9 children in the baby room - and usually they are in two separate groups. Usually 2 or 3 are asleep so in reality there are 2 or 3 playing together with a nursery nurse and a student each. They have a lovely big garden full of toys (and an exploration area for the toddlers). The baby room is quiet and peaceful. I am confused as to why a childminder would be so much better?

unfortunately some people are zealots who think there is only one way eg their way
anyone tells you there is only one way i say run away

i do find it quite irksome that there is one alleged gold standard of motherhood and it doesn't involve daycare

fortunately mums are not a homogeneous mass and we all want different stuff.rightly so.unfortunately nursery is demonised all too readily do what you want without need to demonise someone else.

when our children prepare for important milestones eg Uni,1st job,home ownership i don't think anyone will stop and say "err,so tell me nursery or not"

"Do what is best for you - make your choices - "

I agree with this but wonder how you can make an informed choice if you don't discuss or find out about the possible pros and cons of the various types of care available.

have no problemo with temperate discussion.have problems reading

why bother having them if you put them in nursery
children callously herded and ignored in nursery
precious moments
kum-by-ya played by biddulph ensemble

so by all means lets discuss without the high octane histrionics about nurseries

but unfortunately, some people call it high octane histrionics if anyone as much as mentions that nurseries etc might be a problem for under-3s.

peppapig, if I may hazard a guess, childminder is a more 'homely' environment and supposedly older and more caring because she is likely to be a mother herself. Homely environment + kind carer = closer to motherhood ideal. Therefore a more acceptable compromise than impersonal, institutional and moneygrabbing nursery.

The truth is that in a lot of cases, the ratio of carer to child is the same whether you are talking cm, nursery or parent at home with more than one child.

I personally prefer a nursery over a cm. All too often, you find posts on mn from cms who say they cannot cope because one child has a more difficult temperament and demands too much of her time. Whereas in a nursery, there are more hands to the pump and breaks built in.

juuule, do you then agree with the use of the words "herded", "ignored", "strangers", "institutionalised", "selfish", "why bother to have ..." when describing nurseries for under 3s and the mothers who use them.

That is emotive language, high octane histrionics even.

It depends on whether the nursery/childminder/parent merits that description. Generalisations are never a good thing. It doesn't mean that these things shouldn't be voiced, considered and acted upon (even if that action is discarding it as rubbish in an individual's own situation).

As I've said earlier, it has been levelled at me that I'm depriving my child of socialising and learning various skills by not sending to a nursery, playgroup or school. I had to consider that the person saying that might have had a point and whether I should/could do something about that. After consideration I decided that I was in no way harming my child's progress and until something more convincing turned up then I would carry on doing what we are doing.

and hopefully having considered what is best for your child.you will credit other parents the cognitive/intellectual abilities to do so too.we all make different choices based upon our situation.

Of course I would Scottishmummy
But again as I said before I think that some of the possible problems with childcare for under-3s should be brought to people's attention so that they can make their own minds up and not suppressed or shouted down because it makes some people feel guilty. If you know that the choice you make for your child is best you can do then there is no need to feel guilty. Although I appreciate that sometimes this is easier said than done.

I think that maybe what juuules is saying (I could be wrong ) is that even quite mild musings about possible negative aspects of nursery care tend to draw very angry responses on here.

For instance, blueshoes, I have a lot of respect for your POV on this issue, not least because you obviously come from an AP perspective in some ways. It would be great to be able to have a discussion about the drawbacks and benefits of home-care vs nursery-care with some of the more moderate posters on here (on both sides) - not in order to issue a series of edicts about how everyone MUST deal with their own children, but just because it would be interesting to see where the common ground lies - I'm sure there would be quite a lot.

For instance, I suspect that we all agree that there are some nurseries out there that are failing children, and that some parents - particularly low-income parents - are not in the luxurious position of being able to carefully weigh up the pros and cons of nursery/childminder/SAHP for their individual children, or of this nursery vs that nursery; they just have to take the cheapest or most convenient form of care, and hope for the best. And IMO that's a long way from ideal. Furthermore, it's a political issue and one that MNers could have some influence on if we could only agree on a few things.

Unfortunately, those who come out spitting feathers and talking nonsense (on both sides) tend to derail these debates.