To think toddler group shouldn't be handing out such anti nursery literature?

[Ebb]

I have recently started going to a toddler group, run in a church, which is, in general, lovely but today we were all handing print outs of 'Raising Babies' by Steve Biddulph entitled 'Should under 3's go to nursery?'

It basically suggests that babies under 1 shouldn't go to nursery at all. "Organize for your baby to be with a parent or Grandparent all the time except for occassional breaks - days off or evenings out - when you have a trusted and familiar babysitter."

When your child is one "up to one short day per week eg. 9-3 with a trusted and familiar carer. Ideally 1:1 but in a 1:3 ratio at most."

Further quotes include "Some children are not ready (for nursery) until three or more and group care can be upsetting and harmful for these children." and "*Remember - nurseries have become big business. Many nurseries never engage emotionally with their children."

I am lucky in the fact I take my Dc to work with me but a lot of parents don't have a choice and nurseries are the feasible option. Surely a toddler group shouldn't be putting more pressure and guilt on parents by handing out such cr@p?!

fattybumbum, but for the biddulph tambourine, you have clearly not been able to take in anything else said on this thread that is not anti-nursery.

Talk about regurgitating stereotypes.

i dont have to work.i want to work.i enjoy working.i chose this.had nursery booked at 12 wk pg.working was always part of the plan

prior to having lo i was solvent,had mortgage,career -why would give that up.i dont solely want to be mum

gasp scottishmummy

scottishmummy you are clearly missing some kind of mummy gene and should probably take yourself out the back and whip yourself with a bunch of birch twigs. I will send fattybumbum with her biddulph tambourine to provide your flagellation with some musical accompaniment.

Could you whip my dh as well please? I just read Fattybumbum's post to him ("Why would any intelligent and loving parent (male or female) think their child is better off with a teenager (most likely childless) with an NVQ in childcare?") and he said 'Because the teenager might actually enjoy playing with babies all day instead of thinking it's the most boring thing in the world.'
(Actually, would Biddulph chastise him for that? Or is it ok because he's a man?)

pmsl!

i await the mummy martyrs beating me with hand made tampons as they berate me that they haven't bought new clothes in 7years and have shoulder skelfs carrying that damn rugged cross

My DS has just got into the 'bob is my best friend, sue is my best friend' thing. The other day he turned round and said 'Auntie nursery worker is my best friend' and when I asked him why 'cos she gave me big cuddle when i hurt my knee'.

When I ask him what he wants to do in the mornings he often cheers and says ' nursery, i want to play with the ... I want to play with bob' etc.

He loves it.

I am not saying one way is right or one way is wrong - but please do people really think mums who use nurseries havent thought about it properly? Do you think we really have a choice? I am with Scottishmummy - I love work, I enjoy it, I have a great child friendly career which I need to keep going or I would be back to square one. I also HAVE to work when it boils down to it.

And please can someone give me this mile long list of studies against childcare? Where exactly does he get his specific guidleine from - randomised controlled studies where there was proven to be a specific time that was deemed safe?

Actually, anyone out there in academic who fancies a longitudinal study? On a serious note - if someone can give me enough evidence as to why nurseries are hell holes I would re consider. Until then I can only go on what my DC's are like.

It absolutely has to be about the people at the nursery. We pay above the going rate for DS, and send in his food (which in effect increases the cost further) because we love his nursery. They have a range of ages of staff, and they always have one extra in each unit (main and baby unit seperate but do interact regularly) to be doing nappies or answering the door etc.

When DS was settling in someone always gave him a cuddle - when he was upset for a while at first when I came to pick him up (during settling in), someone was always cuddling him or sitting right next to him (there are often staff sitting with one child on each knee). They know what DS loves (a member of staff will say "he loves X toy, try that" if he's a bit upset when I drop him off) and they can tell me in detail about what he's been doing each day.

Now I come to pick him up and often get to watch him interacting with the kids and staff and it is so lovely. He learns things from the other kids and learns to share toys and attention - which, at his age (17mo) is something I think he needs to learn when he has a want not a need.

Nursery never resorts to cbeebies when they're tired. They never shout at DS because they've just had enough. While I'm good at chatting and singing and stuff I'm not so good at activities, so he gets a change at nursery.

Anyway, I do think that the individual nursery has everything to do with how your child is cared for. I don't know about under 1s because I have no experience of them in nursery, but it is proving really great for my DS and while we had some settling in issues, he's now more confident than ever. Although perhaps it is the combination of the time at nursery (8-5 one day, 8-1 another, the rest with me) and our loosely AP parenting.

scottishmummy - do you really think that everyone who has concerns about institutional group childcare for babies and very small children is just driven by some sort of snotty competitive parenting ethos, or by ideology? Because that's how you make it sound - that no sensible person in their right mind could possibly have any reasonable concerns about whether it's the best environment for babies.

I think your sneering is really crap - it polarises the issue in a really unhelpful way. My concerns about babies and very tiny children doing full-time hours in nursery come from lots of different sources - my own experience as a mum, my reading, and my experience of working with nursery nurses and with other people who teach on childcare courses. It's got nothing to do with competetive parenting. I've done what most of the other people here have had to do re: childcare - muddle through trying to do my best for my children in difficult circumstances. I've used family, au-pairs, childminders and nursery care for my children. All three of my children have attended a local nursery part time from the age of three and it's been brilliant for them. My oldest attended full days as a baby at two different nurseries until I withdrew her. I know a lot of your stance on this subject is posturing and you're trying to amuse yourself and everyone else here by many of your comments, but maybe you should stop a minute and think how insulting you're being to those of us who have struggled with this issue as parents.

Chairmanmaio - you are right that the quality of care children get at a nursery is hugely important. The children's centre nursery my kids attend is fantastic on that score - all the staff are mature, they all have a minimum of NVQ level 3, and there a 3 qualified teachers working in the unit all the time. I think nurseries like this offer children loads of stimulation and a great environment. I wish all nurseries were as good.

For me thougt it doesn't change my basic belief that babies really do best being cared for primarily by one person with whom they have a strong and loving relationship, and that the average nursery environment and set up makes that very difficult to achieve.

fabsmum, I agree with you 100%
"For me thougt it doesn't change my basic belief that babies really do best being cared for primarily by one person with whom they have a strong and loving relationship, and that the average nursery environment and set up makes that very difficult to achieve."

I have ordered Biddulph's book from Amazon, so I can read it make up my own mind about him instead of hearing other people's opinions.

purepurple, Biddulph is greatly reaffirming with people who already hold yours and fabsmum's views. That is the Biddulph bandwagon.

The point is not what he says (which the OP summarises very well), it is whether he selectively presents and interprets evidence which prove his view and suppresses evidence which does not.

But then, you won't get the answer to that question from reading the book. Knock yourself out.

May I just say to OP I expect they should be allowed to give whatever info they feel is appropriate and according to their beliefs, and you are of course entitled to disagree and stop going there in protest

Wow! Never thought this would turn into such a nursery debate!

I think if a toddler group hands out such literature, they should also handout some information on how to choose good childcare and the pros and cons of all them. It's a sad reality that the majority of parents have to work mainly for financial reasons.

My Mum said to me once 'Well I didn't work until you went to secondary school' to which I replied 'If we had a £17000 mortgage, I wouldn't be working either!'

I personally wouldn't put my Ds in a nursery but mainly because I'm a nanny and it seems a bit pointless to put my child in childcare to look after other peoples children. I am Really lucky that I work for the nicest family ever who see me bring my Ds to work as a bonus and their Dc adore my Ds and vise versa. Their Dc originally went to nursery and are happy, confident and affectionate children.

I think nurseries vary so much that parents do need information to help them make the right decisions but at the end of the day, if a parent has to work and they don't have relatives available then they have to use childcare.

purepurple - what a shame you've ordered it. I've got a copy you can have. I'm loathe to give it to a charity shop - don't want to stuff them up with nonsense

Excellent post, fabsmum.

Some of you might find this website interesting and maybe useful in childcare decisions.

blueshoes, I do know how to do research. I will look for this evidence that disproves his theory.

purepurple, do also look at evidence whether parents necessarily make the best carers in all situations and whether nursery care ameliorates neglect in the home. All the best.

juuule, what is your view about the What About the Children link you posted?

Just looking at the title of the research articles and indeed the name of the site, it is immediately evident to me that it promotes a very clear pro-mother anti-childcare for under-3s agenda.

I am not for supressing such information, just that I know the opposite situation works well for me and for many parents who use my dcs' nursery. So I all I ask for is a balanced discussion about cases when it could work to that women can make informed choices.

From the website
"It seeks to raise awareness of the emotional needs of children under three, explaining and promoting the work and role of parents in securing the emotional health of children."

Now I don't think that is a bad thing. The charity also acknowledges that there are situations when childcare is necessary.

Who will look after my baby best? is a leaflet which gives carers points to consider when looking for childcare.

Childcare is promoted in lots of places, children's centres, health centres, libraries, etc all easily accessible information which would have some people believe (or reassure) that childcare other than by parents is ideal and a good thing for young children. This isn't always the case and I think that sites like What about the children and places like in the OP go some way to putting the other side. It is all information which contributes to a parent being able to make an informed decision.

Childcare info on the dcsf site. (for balance)

Notice the leaflet (pdf link) "Sure Start Children's Centres - good for your child and good for you" This leaflet was sent to a lot of homes. Nothing wrong with that as it brings the service to people's attention. However, some people I know took it as meaning that childcare was a better option in all cases than parental care. I was told at one point that I was depriving my child of a valuable experience by not sending to playgroup.

juuule, that is fine so long as you acknowledge that the site predominantly (not exclusively) promotes a certain worldview.

I don't actually agree that people are bombarded with literature that childcare is good. I find the opposite is true, particularly of the anti-nursery type, which I found all too easily when researching what childcare to use when returning to work at the end of my maternity leave.

The government would have an agenda in persuading people to return to work and so there would probably be leaflets promoting childcare. But those leaflets were too clumsy for educated women to find credible at all. On the contrary, newspapers are full of daily-mirror type horror stories of nurseries which make a bigger impact on me than government propaganda. Mn, which is a microcosm of society, is also deeply critical of ft long hours nursery care.

Women need to see both views to make an informed decision. It is not nursery v. no nursery. It is nursery, the quality, length of hours etc combined with the home environment and all the variables in that child's life and personality which determine whether nursery care would be a suitable option or not for under 3s.

"Women need to see both views to make an informed decision."

Absolutely. Which is why I can't see what the problem is with the distribution of leaflets as mentioned in the op. Just one view among many.

Actually it is not 'normal' for babies to be looked after by one person, if you look across geography and history. Pre-industrialisation babies were cared for by the mother AND the extended family/community.

Mothers have always had to work - the non-working wife is an abberation, a status symbol for the aspirant Victorian middle classes. Hence mothers have always needed childcare. It used to be less formal, is all.