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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think toddler group shouldn't be handing out such anti nursery literature?

351 replies

Ebb · 19/06/2009 21:23

I have recently started going to a toddler group, run in a church, which is, in general, lovely but today we were all handing print outs of 'Raising Babies' by Steve Biddulph entitled 'Should under 3's go to nursery?'

It basically suggests that babies under 1 shouldn't go to nursery at all. "Organize for your baby to be with a parent or Grandparent all the time except for occassional breaks - days off or evenings out - when you have a trusted and familiar babysitter."

When your child is one "up to one short day per week eg. 9-3 with a trusted and familiar carer. Ideally 1:1 but in a 1:3 ratio at most."

Further quotes include "Some children are not ready (for nursery) until three or more and group care can be upsetting and harmful for these children." and "*Remember - nurseries have become big business. Many nurseries never engage emotionally with their children."

I am lucky in the fact I take my Dc to work with me but a lot of parents don't have a choice and nurseries are the feasible option. Surely a toddler group shouldn't be putting more pressure and guilt on parents by handing out such cr@p?!

OP posts:
flamingobingo · 20/06/2009 11:16

There is a lot of evidence about the damage that prolonged high levels of cortisol can do to babies brains. Read 'why love matters' or 'what every parent needs to know' to read about it all.

Sorry if it's not nice to hear, but it is very, very well researched knowledge now.

blueshoes · 20/06/2009 11:16

I don't agree with anything being hushed up. Only that things be reported in a balanced way.

I am not even bothered that I chose long hours ft nursery over a nanny for my children despite knowing all the risks. Simply because I am satisfied my children are thriving where they are.

As for how nursery carers feel about ft nursery, well, you can always say they put on an act, but when I moved my ds down from ft to half days, they seemed genuinely sad for him. And told me about his little gang and how they would miss him in the afternoons. It is his community and routine there, not a box under a table.

blueshoes · 20/06/2009 11:21

flamingo, that is just scaremongering. The prolonged exposure to cortisol which causes the permanent changes in the brain (attachment theories, Bowlby and such) have to approach levels of neglect and abuse seen in Romanian orphanages.

That same argument is used to apparently support the view that babies who are left to cry it out during sleep training will grow up to be anxious and nervous - absolutely no evidence that that causes permanent damage you describe in those scenarios.

I don't disagree that prolonged care in nursery which has serious levels of neglect is potentially damaging. But there are good nurseries and I would always advise parents to research their nurseries carefully and be vigilant for changes in their dcs.

flamingobingo · 20/06/2009 11:25

I really hate it when stating unpleasant facts is called scaremongering just because people don't want to hear it

blueshoes · 20/06/2009 11:29

Also, 'Why Love Matters' by Sue Gerhardt promotes an attachment parenting agenda. Believe it or not, I attachment parent my dcs. I have become a lot less concerned about using nurseries since I have seen how both my bf-ed and clingy dcs settled and were happy there.

I still breast feed and co-sleep with my ds 2.9 and did not do CIO despite his poor sleep. But I use ft nursery.

flamingobingo · 20/06/2009 11:31

So you've made an informed choice. Lots of parents don't make an informed choice.

Yes, it is v odd that a toddler group are handing out literature like that, but there's nothing wrong with the literature itself.

purepurple · 20/06/2009 11:31

flamingobingo
i know exactly what you mean

blueshoes · 20/06/2009 11:32

flamingo, stating risks in a balanced way by also discussing the parameters of the study, is not scaremongering.

blueshoes · 20/06/2009 11:35

Informed choice also means that in certain, possibly even many cases, ft nursery from a young age can work very well indeed. If you know what to look for. I am only providing the counterbalanced view to what seems to be the knee-jerk distaste on mn to ft nursery from a young age.

Same for parenting, isn't it. Not everyone who thinks they are doing fine is a good parent - you need to know what you are doing.

gingertoo · 20/06/2009 11:43

I can remember reading 'Raising Boys' when I was a single parent - it made very distressing reading. The overwhelming viewpoint seemed to be that a single mum could raise decent boys on her own - but without a man, it wasn't very likely........

The book went to the charity shop and I got on with raising my boys without Mr Bidulph's input!

V suprised that the toddler group in the OP felt it was appropriate to distribute parts of his book

LovelyTinOfSpam · 20/06/2009 11:49

I suspect my DD is pretty bleeding stressed at the moment as I keep telling her off every 2 seconds

Thanks for the link dizietsma that was a very enjoyable read.

OP YANBU have you any idea why they suddenly and seemingly randomly started dishing out anti nursery pamphlets? Really peculiar.

purepurple · 20/06/2009 11:56

I am going to stick my oar in and link this article

I have to agree with him

PuppyMonkey · 20/06/2009 12:02

Whatever you think about Steve Biddulph, and I for example think he is a twat , a toddler group is not really the place for handing out such leaflets.

I mean, maybe I could accept that they were amongst various piles of literature on a table and you could be free to pick up and peruse at your leisure. Or not. But to actually hand them out is a bit not on imho. That's turning toddler groups political, that is.

TheFallenMadonna · 20/06/2009 12:14

It's a pretty passive aggressive thing to do isn't it? I mean, somone clearly has an agenda, and fair enough if that person wants to promote discussion or debate, but I'm not convinced a) a toddler group, where parents tend to go for support, is the place to do that, or b) that this is actually promoting debate at all. On here perhaps, but I doubt MN was her target audience.

fabsmum · 20/06/2009 12:41

"ft nursery from a young age can work very well indeed. If you know what to look for"

I'm sure nursery 'works well' if what you are looking for is reliable childcare which is open all year around. Doesn't change the fact that most babies in these nurseries are having to share their main carer with 2 or 3 other babies of the same age, and that their carer may well be very young and fairly transient. Some nurseries have a stable staff. Many don't. Many have a core staff which is stable, but are reliant on agency staff to fill in the gaps.

When you visit a nursery you see what they want you to see. Same with OFSTED inspections.

On a personal note, I withdrew my dd when she was 1 from a very well thought of nursery - part of a national chain. I'd gone to pick her up and been told she had very bad nappy rash. I thought it was odd as she hadn't had any problem when I'd dropped her off that morning. By the time I picked her up 8 hours later she had two sores on her bum. I went home and thought about it and realised what had happened was this: that she'd been left sitting in a shitty nappy for about 4 or 5 hours, and that the reason she'd been left was because nobody had been near enough to her during that time to realise that she'd crapped. I was devastated. She's a lovely affectionate child who would never go an hour without a cuddle and a chat at home. I kept thinking about her roaming around this nursery alone while her key worker spent the whole day trying to settle in a new child who was crying a lot and who wouldn't be put down.....

Blueshoes - there is no 'knee jerk' 'anti nursery' response here. Most people who have strong feelings about this issue have spent a lot of time thinking about it and have good reasons for believing what they do. I really don't think it's fair to turn this into a debate about competitive parenting - it's a really important issue that we all ought to take seriously.

Also, your comments about the impact of high levels of cortisol on developing brains is not just relevant to children exposed to extreme neglect and abuse. Sue Gerhardt acknowledges that strong attachment and responsive parenting does ameliorate many of the more damaging affects of high levels of cortisol on the brain, but she doesn't say that this makes institutional group care the optimal form of care during those vital early years.

Re: having an 'attachment parenting agenda'..... do writers who support the status quo (which in this country means bottlefeeding from about 4 weeks, babies sleeping in separate rooms, and institutional group care for toddlers) have a 'detachment parenting' agenda? Or do you see the status quo as some sort of norm against which the sort of practices Sue Gerhardt's books seem to promote as optimal should be measured against?

What impressed me most when I read 'Why Love Matters' is how subtle and complex the whole issue is. I came away thinking that even though most loved babies are robust and adaptable, their experience of care in those first few months and years does affect them in ways we can never fully understand or see.

On my part since withdrawing my baby from nursery I've thought about it a lot, and now can't believe that I was prepared to hand my precious child over for the bulk of her waking hours for months at a time, to someone who was little more than a stranger to me. That I didn't really know anything meaningful about the people who were spending more time with my child than I was...... And to (sorry to say this - I know some nursery nurses are very highly trained, but.....) people who were mainly very young, quite poorly educated and earning a very low salary. Because that's the reality of nursery care for most children in this country.

PuppyMonkey · 20/06/2009 12:43

You had a crap nursery fabsmum. Bad luck for you. Mine changes my dd's nappy about 600 times a day, even when there's no need.

Hulababy · 20/06/2009 13:16

Had excellent experience with nursery case from DD being 5 months old to school starting age. Exellent all round care. Neer had problems with staff not care or staff not changing DD, etc. We chose on gut instnct and it never failed us.

I don't think it is the place of a toddler group to be handing out such information.

policywonk · 20/06/2009 13:27

Don't know about other people's toddler groups, but the one I go to has many piles of leaflets advertising various nurseries and childcare options - so in that instance, while I'd be surprised to see a Biddulph handout, I'd see it as just presenting an alternative POV to the masses of pro-nursery information that's already there.

I do agree that personally handing out sheets to individual parents is a little weird.

Astrophe · 20/06/2009 13:36

I'm another one who thinks Steve Biddulph has some worthwhile things to say (however unpopular). I do agree though that it is odd to be handing the book out at a Toddler group. I wonder what was behind the decision to do so?

It seems to me that most (SAHM/SAHD) parents send their little ones of 1 or 2 to nursery because they feel they might be bored/unstimulated etc, and that there is something that children of that age need which nurseries can offer but parents can't...which I think is wrong, and a con that the nurseries themselves must love. So perhaps they were trying to counter that belief?

Still, I agree, its odd for a Toddler group to decide on an agenda like that - maybe a book table with a variety of books and opinions, or a newsletter with pros and cons of nursery care, or a 'what to look for in a good nursery' might have been mor ehelpful.

katiestar · 20/06/2009 13:38

Blueshoes-did you actually read all my post or just the bits you wanted to jump on ?
I explained about lower levels of stress being a sign of stimulation.What the research found were levels associated with negative stress.

Maybe the toddler groups agenda is that it wants to promote well being of parents.

katiestar · 20/06/2009 13:38

Blueshoes-did you actually read all my post or just the bits you wanted to jump on ?
I explained about lower levels of stress being a sign of stimulation.What the research found were levels associated with negative stress.

Maybe the toddler groups agenda is that it wants to promote well being of parents.

policywonk · 20/06/2009 13:41

Yes, I agree with that astrophe.

It's all a matter of perception, isn't it? As someone who doesn't use any paid childcare at all, I'm very conscious of the pro-childcare agenda - it seems to me to be quite overwhelming, and that other points of view are rarely heard. (I was astonished recently to find out that of a September school intake of 90 children, DS2 will be the only child who has not been in any sort of paid childcare in his preschool year.)

But I do see that for those who use childcare, they might feel that anti-daycare messages are everywhere.

It's fair for groups to make information about both options available. But it's not fair to push just one POV.

katiestar · 20/06/2009 13:48

Blueshoes-did you actually read all my post or just the bits you wanted to jump on ?
I explained about lower levels of stress being a sign of stimulation.What the research found were levels associated with negative stress.

Maybe the toddler groups agenda is that it wants to promote well being of children

TheFallenMadonna · 20/06/2009 13:51

Ah. We had no propaganda leaflets of any kind at our toddler groups, so perhaps that's why it seems so odd to me. I'm sure the toddler group does want to promote the weel being parents. I wouldn't aree that this was an effective way of doing so though.

Is the cortisol level/negative stress thing so cut and dried then? Or does it vary between individuals?

Qally · 20/06/2009 14:39

"Well to be fair Biddulph does quote research sources all the way through the book"

I could quote research sources proving food is fatal, and that you should therefore not eat it. It wouldn't be a balanced or even sane opinion, but it would be referenced. References are meaningless without knowing what the sources they are drawn from actually say, and the agenda of the study creators.

My son is being raised at home by me, and then my mother will provide childcare when I return part-time, so pompous assertions that I just don't want to hear what he has to say are very wide of the mark. It's not relevant to me, personally. But home care just isn't an option for a lot of parents - and if a mother is frazzled, depressed or resentful at home then I can't but feel that a really good nursery would be better, even aside from the financial demands. It instantly makes me suspicious when someone asserts that a woman's place is in the home. I think it's pretty naive to assume no agenda.

Handing out propaganda in a group to support the mothers of toddlers is out of line. It is not their role or their place to do that.