To think toddler group shouldn't be handing out such anti nursery literature?

[Ebb]

I have recently started going to a toddler group, run in a church, which is, in general, lovely but today we were all handing print outs of 'Raising Babies' by Steve Biddulph entitled 'Should under 3's go to nursery?'

It basically suggests that babies under 1 shouldn't go to nursery at all. "Organize for your baby to be with a parent or Grandparent all the time except for occassional breaks - days off or evenings out - when you have a trusted and familiar babysitter."

When your child is one "up to one short day per week eg. 9-3 with a trusted and familiar carer. Ideally 1:1 but in a 1:3 ratio at most."

Further quotes include "Some children are not ready (for nursery) until three or more and group care can be upsetting and harmful for these children." and "*Remember - nurseries have become big business. Many nurseries never engage emotionally with their children."

I am lucky in the fact I take my Dc to work with me but a lot of parents don't have a choice and nurseries are the feasible option. Surely a toddler group shouldn't be putting more pressure and guilt on parents by handing out such cr@p?!

I agree with you - I dont think there is any need for a child to go to a nursery. I do think they benefit from being around other children but of course that doesnt have to be away from the mother.I too saw some nurseries I would not dream of leaving my children in.

I do however think there are benefits - and some negatives to nursery and in a situation where it is best for the family to have both parents employed (or obviously one parent if single parent family) then a good quality nursery does no harm. What I dont like is sweeping generalisations that nursery = bad and what often accounts to an attack on mums who choose to use them - often when an opinion hasnt been asked for.

Juuule - when you say 'you don't discuss or find out' - do you mean me or people in general? If you do mean me then apart from the obvious judgement about my lack of research then this is hilarious as I research (and over research) every option - I am even an early years (0 - 3) child researcher - may as well get paid for the obsession I feel.

What I am still waiting for is some peer reviewed evidence as to why nurseries are awful. I do not mean evidence that says they are better or that staying with mum is better but evidence that shows this supposed awful harm. I dont mean one or two studies - but meta analyses, review articles etc.

I would love every mum to be in the situation where she could stay home if she wanted - and for her to be supported financially, emotionally, practically to do so. Many mums need to work - primarily for money but because they enjoy their jobs and because working puts their family in a better situation whether that is only because the mum is happier.

Can I just say (because I am a pompous arse): this really shouldn't be a debate about 'mothers'. It's a debate about parents/carers. I know some of you might say 'well, in reality it's always seen as the mother's problem.' But there's no need for us to reinforce this depressingly retrograde thinking.

I know a few SAHDs, and many more men who work a short week to spend one or two days at home with their children. Women are not uniquely equipped to look after children (once you get past the bfing issue, which is admittedly a difficult one). IMO, one thing we should be doing is bringing a lot of pressure to bear on government in favour of more flexible working options for all parents.

*NB None of this is to say that nurseries are Bad, or that parents who want to work FT are Wrong.

nothing in politics or life should solely a women's Issue and i would contend that the subtle aligning of women to so called women's issues eg childcare,maternity actually holds us back.

Kokumo Rocks the Scottish poet was recently interviewed and she said she found it tiresome that people assumed she could only talk about race issues.

yes good nursery provision is a global pertinent issue for all.

I agree with more flexible working options for parents and better nursery provision.

paid maternity leave for both parents redeemable in pre-school period,thus employers would have to grant both parents paid time.

I would have been livid had my church toddler group handed this out. Steve Biddulph has his own agenda and it's a very particular one but it is not the only view nor does it have any more value than any other.

Of course I would say that though - full time working mother who sent my 1 year old to nursery that I am.

policywonk - I would love to have that discussion, believe me. But the words on this thread which have been used to describe nursery are deliberately incendiary, do you not agree? And like I said a few pages back, while I think that decent childcare should be a right, given that we are a long way off being able to provide a decent education for every single one of our children, I suspect a high level of childcare is some way off.

I must say I always raise the proverbial eyebrow when these discussion arise.
But then I've worked with children in the care system for more years than it's polite to mention.
These are the children to whom descriptions such as damaged and dangerously stressed should apply.
I can't recall one single case where full time nursery contributed to any such damage. Ditto in respect of children going through the youth justice system.
I really dont know why people worry about well loved children, start handing out leaflets, spouting their 'concern' on the internet etc. Why don't they expend their energy on the children in the UK who really need the help?

Well said Litchick!

Policywonk - I am - I keep meaning to write parents and mum slips out...

spice - yes, I agree that some of the terminology has been incendiary.

But the fact that very good quality childcare is not yet universally available doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about its desirability, or the drawbacks of some of the present arrangements.

One aspect of this debate that I find interesting is the question of whether it's worse to provide substandard care (which, of course, can refer to parents as well as paid carers) to a baby (

Policywonk yes you are right with what I was saying.

Peppapig I meant the general 'you'.

Forgive me for not reading all the thread but I haven't got long on here tonight.

Firstly, I agree YANBU to not expect this kind of thing at a toddler group, I agree with you.

The only point I wished to add though, which may have already been added, is how much it surprises me that everyone I speak to about going back to work assumes that my DD will be going to a nursery.

I find myself almost hiding the fact that we prefer a childminder by saying that we only need short hours to be covered and nursery hours are too long. A lot of the people who make this assumption are friends with similar aged babies. They seem to assume childcare = nursery.

I wonder how it got like that?

I would love to be able to discuss the issue calmly PW. But I can't see it happening on MN - too many people wade in with a blanket 'all nurseries are bads/all mums are good' POV to be able to ever have a sensible debate/discussion.

I'm not sure about my choices - I've decided to work FT until my DS is nearly ready to start school and then leave my job and go freelance so that I can be around for when he finishes school and during the holidays. I don't know if that's totally arse about face but I do know that if I had decided to do that now, in the current economic conditions, we'd be facing penury. I suspect only time will tell if that's the right decision.

On a wider level, it's only by looking at those societies where childcare is the norm for the under 3s (and I include in that not only Scandinavian countries but also those societies and cultures which don't focus on mothers providing sole care in the early years as Edam mentioned earlier) that you might be able to evaluate the long term effects. And there are so many other factors that come into play that I'm not entirely convinced it would be possible to draw any meaningful conclusions one way or the other.

Don't hide it! Open people's eyes to the option. It's the only one I'd consider for my children.

plimple you're right, but it's so hard to do though without causing offence or looking like you're ragging on other people's choices.

My friend is moving her 9 month old from c/m to nursery she says because she prefers nursery as they do lots of group activities and outings. I wouldn't want that for my dd at such a young age, but if that's what she wants for her daughter, that's kinda her business, you know?

I'm not a social scientist (well, I'm a historian but that's neither here nor there in this debate), so I'll happily admit that I know pretty much nothing about how studies are set up and how confounding factors can be accounted for, etc.

I do take your point that in issues like these, it's probably almost impossible to isolate the specific effects of certain types of care.

But isn't it possible to determine:

a) how susceptible children are to stressful situations (of any kind), according to age? and

b) what kinds of situations are particularly stressful to children (again, not referring to types of care but to specific conditions - high ratio of children to carer, low levels of eye contact etc), and then work to ensure that such conditions are eradicated, as far as possible, in childcare settings?

Of course you can't legislate for this sort of thing in a home setting (although lots of SAHPs would be interested to hear about such research and would take account of it). But that's no reason not to legislate for it in paid-for settings.

I've posted this before because I was really impressed by it.
Early Years - How they do it in Sweden

From the blurb
"There is little structured learning, play is paramount, there are few locks or security coded gates and children are encouraged to help with cleaning and catering.

Most Swedish children who leave pre-school at the age of six cannot read or write. Yet within three years of starting formal schooling at the age of seven, these children lead the literacy tables in Europe."

The comments are interesting too.

I would consider a nursery like this. Does anyone have experience of same or similar where they live?

OP, I would be surprised if the church toddler group I go to handed out a leaflet like this, unless, as others have said, to provide a bit of balance to the debate. YANBU.

CurryMaid, agreed. When I had a regular job and was going to return to work, I planned for my DS to be looked after by a childminder, and other parents I spoke to seemed to think I was mad to even consider it. But to me, a good CM was the next best thing to being cared for by family. As it happened, I quit my job and went freelance, so DH and I share his care and I haven't needed any paid childcare at all.

Spicemonster, it might be worth checking out how much work is out there if you freelanced now. I assumed the same as you, that now is a bad time to do it, but since I made the decision, I'm inundated with work. Companies don't have the budget for new hires, but they can still take on independents. Probably depends on what your line of work is though!

Policywonk, agree with you too, good quality childcare is the key.

Juuule - Most childminders are like this!
Currymaid - I'm a CM and take my kids out all the time, from farms and museums to regular playgroups where they do "group activities" e.g. singing - although strangely they never join in that much with singing at the play groups, but do sing happily when we're at home and there are just the few of us.

Plimple - but not all especially with all the Ofsted stuff. The last childminder that I had practically run a small nursery and was an incredibly officious person. We didn't stay with her long. It is essential that people look around to find what they want and hope that it exists in their area.

ok,really a longitudinal study with matched cohort.aim to match in terms of socio-economics,age,exclude Known behavioural conditions (as this will skew data)
2 groups
1 -nursery
2- stay at home

hypothesis and null hypothesis
consent forms
qualitative study or quantitative study

define stress.
what will you use to measure stress
eg physiological data or observable soft data eg affect,social interaction

will researcher be present or will staff/mums report data (is this reliable)
will presence of researcher in itself be stressful

what like for like situation will you place both groups in eg undertake a task.

juule, I have seen that video before. It made me want to go and work in Sweden

The differences between our nurseries and those in Sweden are

The staff are better trained. Most do a 3 year academic course before they are let anywhere near children. Here you can leave school at 16, get a job in a nursery, do an NVQ in a few months and viola a 'qualified' nursery nurse.

Parents in Sweden are entitled to the most generous maternity and paternity pay which means that they get for a year after the baby is born. Which means there are not that many babies under 1 in childcare.

The children are cared for in nurture groups, all with different ages, like a family with a key person. Here children are cared for in large groups according to their age. Siblings are often kept apart all day.

Children are seen as being citizens from birth with important rights. They have a right to a place in a childcare centre from the age of 1. SEN children and children of parents who are students take precedence.

Child poverty levels are amomgst the lowest in Europe, meaning that the reason why early years care exists is different than in the UK. Child care centres are there to provide a service to working parents returning to work, contributing to society. Childcare in the UK comes from a tradition of intervention to help disadvantaged families.

Childcare costs in Sweden are much lower than in the UK. Parents typically pay much a smaller percentage than UK parents. Meaning Uk nurseries are big business and profit driven.
We have come a long way in this country recently with the EYFS and Every child matters but we still have a long way to go before our early years care and education is anything like that of Sweden's.

Ignore my bad grammar but it is early and I have just got up

"What I dont like is sweeping generalisations that nursery = bad and what often accounts to an attack on mums who choose to use them - often when an opinion hasnt been asked for."

Where are the sweeping generalisations here than 'nursery = bad'? As far as I can see all the people here who are raising concerns about nurseries qualify what they say - that you need to take the age of the child, the quality of the care and the number of hours the child is being looked after into account.

scottishmummy - have you ever seen any good quality research showing that full-time nursery care is harmless or beneficial for babies and small children under two? I'd be interested to see it. Organised and widespread provision of full-time nursery care for babies and small children is a fairly new thing really, and I think it would be right for the government to fund research showing that departing from traditional baby-rearing practices on the scale that we've seen in this country in the past 10 years or so, isn't harmful to children in the medium or long term.

purepurple - what you say about nursery care in Sweden is so interesting. Especially the bit about children being cared for in mixed age groups.

fabsmum - you have used a lot of emotive language to describe nursery care in your posts, you have extrapolated your bad experience to a sweeping generalisation to include all nurseries and have completely ignored the fact that children who have a number of siblings and who are cared for with by their mothers fail to get their emotional and physical needs met 100% of the time.

I'm sorry if you can't see that you're not coming across as someone with a very obvious agenda but it's pretty blatant from where I'm sitting.

I don't actually have a child in care at nursery incidentally so I'm not trying to justify my own choices - I'd just rather have a discussion which is fact, rather than emotion based.