To think toddler group shouldn't be handing out such anti nursery literature?

[Ebb]

I have recently started going to a toddler group, run in a church, which is, in general, lovely but today we were all handing print outs of 'Raising Babies' by Steve Biddulph entitled 'Should under 3's go to nursery?'

It basically suggests that babies under 1 shouldn't go to nursery at all. "Organize for your baby to be with a parent or Grandparent all the time except for occassional breaks - days off or evenings out - when you have a trusted and familiar babysitter."

When your child is one "up to one short day per week eg. 9-3 with a trusted and familiar carer. Ideally 1:1 but in a 1:3 ratio at most."

Further quotes include "Some children are not ready (for nursery) until three or more and group care can be upsetting and harmful for these children." and "*Remember - nurseries have become big business. Many nurseries never engage emotionally with their children."

I am lucky in the fact I take my Dc to work with me but a lot of parents don't have a choice and nurseries are the feasible option. Surely a toddler group shouldn't be putting more pressure and guilt on parents by handing out such cr@p?!

Is this a thinly wailed antinursery thread?

yes very thinly wailed,more a screeching crecendo

I don't think that's what the OP wanted. There are just some posters who I'm convinced have an alert on all threads that mention the N word so they can come along and bang their biddulph tambourine

but MN orthodoxy is no mere mention off nurseries rings the precious moments mamas out foaming at the mouth

suddenly everyone is melanie klein with a subscription to attachment today

LOL at biddulph tambourine

blueshoes - you've missed the point. Babies at home are cared for by parents who have a huge emotional investment in their welfare. This is simply not true of children cared for at nurseries. And we all acknowledge how much harder it is to meet the physical and emotional needs of two children of exactly the same age - we know that caring for infant twins or triplets is usually emotionally and practically harder than caring for a singleton and older siblings. So why shouldn't it be harder for a nursery nurse to meet the needs of two babies at once if it's hard for a mum to do the same?

And I always feel a bit when I hear people gushing about how much nursery staff adore the children they care for. I'm sure some do, but I also think that many don't have very strong feelings about the children they care for. I used to teach nursery nurses and I can tell you - when parents and bosses aren't around there was plenty of talk about the children they disliked, found whingy or annoying. Sounds awful, but that's the way teenagers and young adults are - they're not always full of reverence for children in the way that parents are.

"but if your DC isn't changed all day long then it's crap isn't it?"

She got missed out on that day. I don't assume it happened all the time. I wasn't aware that it had happened before, but sometimes things do go wrong don't they - with the best will in the world. Nursery staff are fallible. Sometimes people go off sick. The thing is we have no way of knowing about what the experience of nursery is like for our children on a regular day to day basis because we aren't there for more than half an hour or so here and there.

well until mine can go out and earn salary sufficient to maintain my lifestyle baby boot camp it is.with the reprobate staff and shepherdess herding em in a cold callous manner

Fabsmum you have a bizarrely jaundiced view of nurseries, I also find it weird that you think we have no idea what goes on there. I've spent days at mine while our children were settling in, nursery open days etc. Staff turnover is virtually non-existent, there are no 'teenagers' working there (and only more experienced people in the baby unit). Most of the time the ratio in the baby unit is nearer 2.1 than 3.1 and because most of the time at least one of the babies is asleep there is plenty of one-to-one attention (way more than they get at home if you have more than one child and have to do housework).
Just because you chose a crap one because you were impressed by the fact that it was a national chain doesn't mean that the rest of us are so clueless

I'm sure many of the nursery staff don't have very strong feelings for their charges. My DS however is so utterly adorable that his key worker bought him a load of presents for his birthday even though she'd left the nursery 3 months earlier! I'm sorry your DC wasn't as adored as mine was.

Sorry, that's a bit mean. But honestly, what is the point really of you and I comparing experiences? My DS had a good experience, yours didn't. It doesn't prove anything about the benefits or disadvantages of nurseries per se other than whether they are any good or not is largely down to individual members of staff.

one anecdotal story does not equate to aglobal truth

Steven Biddulph is silly NOT because he says 'children suffer in crap nurseries', which is evidently true, but because he says 'nurseries are crap'. This is a problem with a lot of the anti-nursery research (and opinions on MN) which fails to distinguish between good ones and bad ones.

I always wait to hear the line about how parents could not possibly know what happens behind their backs at nurseries.

A sore bum is a red flag. A nursery who does not allow visits at all times of the day is a red flag.

I spent hours and hours sitting in the baby room settling in my ds during the 8 week settling in period. It was the head of the baby room who insisted I stay. There was another mother with me (BTW, our dcs are now the best of friends at 2.9). I listened to triviality and banality of nursery staff chat. They almost forgot about the mothers amongst them.

And once a child is verbal (which starts from 2 years' old), they can actually tell you what happened . I do ask my dcs every day how their day went.

Nursery staff are entitled to think what they like about me. I only insist is that they provide a caring and stimulating experience for my dcs when they are in nursery. By and large, I am satisfied and that the carers are excellent and attentive.

I do get a feel for the ethos of a nursery over the years, as my dcs move up from room to room and I get to know all the carers. There are some carers that seem more engaged than others, but the standard is generally high.

The nursery manager uses the nursery ft for both her dcs.

If a 1:3 adult to child ratio is 'bad', does that mean the Biddulph fans would support taking all triplets into care?

He's a lazy, sexist writer who presents stereotypes as truth and is incapable of dealing in an intelligent or balanced way with proper research.

Blueshoes, I agree. When we were looking round nurseries, there was one supposedly great national chain we rejected because there was a sign up saying 'please don't ask nursery staff to babysit because it will confuse the children if they are put to bed by the person that looks after them during the day.' This was such self-evident twaddle that it made it quite clear this wasn't an institution we could trust - doubtless the real reason was they didn't want parents building relationships with disaffected staff and either poaching them as nannies or finding out what went on behind the scenes. A lot of the expensive national chains are very image-obsessed and more worried about putting across a good impression than actually being good quality IME.

As others have said, it's not that group care is necessarily bad, it's that most nurseries are not good enough. Unfortunately we can't say that without everyone claiming that their nursery is great and to say otherwise is anti-feminist.

And 1:3 is likely to be the best possible ratio an under-2 will have. A room might have 3 carers and 9 children, but most of the time 1 carer will be doing paperwork and one will be changing nappies or making up feeds. The obvious answer is to have an extra member of staff, but of course no one will put in the money for this.

kathy, that sign is dubious. Agree that it would make me think twice if the nursery thought the parents who use them are such fools to fall for that.

BTW, lots of staff at my dcs' nursery (a chain, lol) do babysit. But as far as I know, none of the staff have been poached by parents. Instead, I see staff being rotated from room to room as part of their professional development and eventually the good ones promoted.

A chain is not a mark of quality. There is no substitute for visiting a nursery, and always being vigilant (eg spot visits at different times of day, peeping before entering a room) and talking to verbal children about their day.

I used to teach nursery nurses and I can tell you - when parents and bosses aren't around there was plenty of talk about the children they disliked, found whingy or annoying. Sounds awful, but that's the way teenagers and young adults are - they're not always full of reverence for children in the way that parents are

Awww, that will make my heart glow when I take DD and DS to nursery monday - as Im sure many other mothers will agree

I have a background in psychology and am now lecturing in childhood studies. I co sleep, extended breastfeed and generally attachment parent. But I have to work. My DC's are in nusery 4 days a week - for 8 hours a day. I have made this decision confidently after spending time choosing a good nursery.

My DD is 9 months old - she has been going for 2 months or so. She genuinely gets excited when I pull up in the car and squeals when she sees her key worker. A number of times when I have picked her up I have heard her squealing with laughter. 90% of the time she is being cuddled by someone (not because she is crying) when I pick her up.

I am not saying all nurseries are right for all children. But there is a huge difference between a good one and a bad one. Nappy rash?Most likely bad one. My nursery has a rota for chaning nappies every 3 hours at the very minimum. All the staff are still there 2.5 years after my DS started - bar a few who had babies etc. Even the students - who are there as extras in each room seem to stay for years. I have very little family but would genuinely count nursery as family. They have a walk in policy and I have never seen a child who is being abused. Half the time I cant get my DS to come home he is too busy having fun.

I presume Bidduplh is a stay at home dad where the family is struggling to make ends meet because they have decided to cut one wage?

If someone could please point me in the direction of this peer reviewed high impact journal high citation research I would be most grateful. I have read a few papers on the subject but am intrigued to read about this huge body of research

I have chosen to be a SAHM for the past four years. This choice has plummeted our family into massive debt - i could never bring myself to leave my DD with a CM or at nursery and i don't have the luxery of family members who can care for her. I saw a friend who has just gone back to work, only to hear that her nine month old is suffering separation anxiety.

I felt in my stomach that my friend is not doing the right thing. BUT then, did I Do the right thing either, because this past few years have been stressful in the extreme and pushed our relationship to breaking point. This can't have been good for DD.

Seems to me, mums are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

"As others have said, it's not that group care is necessarily bad, it's that most nurseries are not good enough. Unfortunately we can't say that without everyone claiming that their nursery is great and to say otherwise is anti-feminist."

That's not generally what people do actually say (and certainly not what Biddulph et al say) - if it was then those of us who use good nurseries would mostly be agreeing. Instead people make insane generalisations about nurseries full stop being bad, which is what gets our backs up when in so many cases it is self-evidently wrong.

By the way, it's absolute rubbish that 1.3 is the best ratio the child will get. It's a minimum of 1.3 so unless the number of children there that day is exactly divisible by 3 there will be be more than that (eg 3 staff if there are 7 babies). At any one time at least one of the babies is usually asleep. In practice, as you probably know if you have ever gone on holiday with several other families, if you have a large number of children together at any given time quite a few of them will be playing happily and able to be overseen by one person, leaving the other staff to give more 1-to-1 attention to the children who need it.
As for the paperwork, our nursery has an administrator to do the bulk of it and they deliberately avoid having communication books or those daily reports that say how many poos the child has done etc because they feel it takes staff away from children at the end of the day which is the time when they are more likely to be tired and want a cuddle. The idea that one in three staff is doing paperwork at any given time is horrendous and certainly not the case in the nursery we use.
The key difference with ours, though, is that it's non-profit-making (it's a campus nursery at the uni where dh works) and I know full well we are lucky to have it. But it shows very clearly that many of the negative generalisations about nurseries NEED NOT be true even if very often they are (and I agree with Policy absolutely that there's an issue about the fact that govt policy is forcing poorer women into the workplace when they often don't have much choice of good childcare and have no choice but to use bad nurseries.)

back to OP the god botherers shouldn't be handing out this tat.

stick to the loaves and fishes
maybe water into wine

I think child minders are best!
I prefer a home environment and think pre school years are important to learn how normal houses run including cooking, washing up, hanging out washing etc. As well as doing lots of fun stuff too (My DD loves helping wash up, so maybe my housework is a big part of the fun?). I also like the fact that childminder's and Mums take children shopping and to the post office and other day to day things.
That's my main issue with nurseries, good and bad. Not enough real life learning.

My nursery drafts in 'bank' staff during meal times to add an extra pair of hands. These are carers who are permanently employed at the nursery to float between the different rooms to go wherever the need is eg if staff are on holiday. If need be, the nursery manager is called in to assist.

I agree with Kathy's observation about children generally being engaged and playing with each other, and not need the sort of attention and care that they would require from their parents at home.

From my hours spent in the baby room settling ds in, it was the children who were new to the nursery who needed the most attention. The staff were almost exclusively engaged in caring for their needs. The children who were settled generally just got on with the toys.

Both my dcs were independent and played far better at nursery than they did with me at home. In the same way I don't expect the carers to love my dcs as their own flesh and blood, my dcs intuitively seem to not want that sort of nurturing from their carers that they do from me at home.

Funny that. I would not have believed it until both my dcs, who were otherwise utterly mother-fixated, behaved in the same way at nursery. My MIL thinks nursery was the making of my dcs! I am just glad they are having a nice time and exploring more.

On a teacher's forum that I go on, a lady posted a message that she had been inspecting nurseries for OFSTED for 5 years and in that time had only inspected a handful she'd be willing to leave her own children at.

Why would any intelligent and loving parent (male or female) think their child is better off with a teenager (most likely childless) with an NVQ in childcare? Even if the care is adequate, you can't pay anyone to love your child. If people are bored being at home with their kids then why did they have them? (nb my comments are not directed towards single parents or those who can't afford not to work).

Banging my Bidulph tambourine loudly!

I chose a nursery over a nanny or a cm. Obviously I only speak for myself.

The whole point of a nursery for me is not to reproduce a family life in the nursery or to expect the carers to be mother-substitutes. It is a completely different atmosphere which my dcs recognise as well.

It provides a structured routine, lots of toys and activities and little friends to play alongside with. The carers take care of ouchies, meals, nappychanges, cuddle away hurt feelings. I don't expect them to fall in love with my dcs, though it is nice if they do.

Whenever my dcs change rooms, they hardly ever pine for the carers in the old room. Same for aupairs that I hire. It is just not the same relationship that they have with me and dh.

Nursery adds to the richness of their lives. It is just another dimension. I am not saying children need to have nursery experience to be rounded. Just that my children happen to attend nursery and it is just a fun and stimulating place to be, nothing loaded or handwringing about it.

Where are all these nurseries presumably run by sullen teenagers?! In my nursery there are , shock horror, a number of nursery nurses in their 30's and 40's, many of whom have their own children (at the nursery). I would say the teenagers are actually the minority group. There are quite a few in their early twenties - who have boundless energy, skill and enthusiasm. There are some teenagers from college - but all are guided by the staff and never left to care for the children.

By definition, most first time mums were childless before they had their child - should mums not be allowed to look after their own children? My DS for example is going to be 3 next week - I have never had sole care of a 3 year old before.

Also I had DS when I was 23 - not long past being a teenager - should I again have had him taken from me?

Are you suggesting that parents who leave their children in nurseries are by definition stupid and unloving?

And exactly where are there people supposedly at home bored with their kids so put them into nursery so they can carry on watching daytime tv uninterrupted?

ah the ole why have em line with special dispensation for single and have to work mums

love the ole i know a woman who knows a woman who says they beat dem children doncha know

nothing like a recycled urban myth