To want parents to stop blaming their child's teacher for everything?

[starlightexpress]

I'm just so sick of reading parents on here moaning about how crap their child's teacher is for one reason or another (not aimed at any particular thread this evening, btw).

In any given class of thirty-three, seventy percent of my time is spent dealing with about three kids who couldn't give a fuck. They don't want to learn, they don't want anyone else to learn. I'm not talking SEN, here, I'm talking just plain naughty.

As far as I'm concerned, the majority of the time when a parent is on here moaning about how shitty their child's teacher is, it falls into one of four categories.

Either your child is:

a)Badly brought up and you're making excuses for them.

b)So-called "SEN" which means they can behave when they want to, but misbehave most of the time using said SEN as an excuse. You allow them to do this because you prefer not to take any responsibility for their behaviour.

c)Genuinely suffering from an SEN, which I probably know very little about and am given little support (either in terms of training or TAs or resources)for.

d)Suffering from the fall out of "inclusion" which means that so much of my time is spent firefighting (see a, b and c) that I don't have the time to spend on your child that they deserve.

Of course there are crap teachers. There are also medicore teachers and there are good teachers who have crap days and make crap judgements sometimes. But mostly it is not your child's teacher's fault.

If you are a C or a D parent, then get thee to the Head, the governers, the local MP and kick up an almighty fuss. You're right to be upset, I don't blame you, I'm not happy about it either but what can I do? I'm doing my very very best but I can't fight the system on my own.

If you're an A or a B parent, do what the fuck you want - that's what you do anyway, and I'm not interested in your whining.

Before you ask, I teach in an inner city secondary school. Not the worst school in the whole world but not great either.

I'm a relatively experienced teacher with a decent results record. I don't have classroom management issues - last Ofsted (they actally watched some of my lesson) they said that this was a strength, fwiw. It's worth nothing actually, as Ofsted couldn't identify one end of a decent lesson from another, but I know their opinion matters to a lot of you.

Go on, flame me, I will have heard worse at parents evening, I can take it.

AIBU?

Oh God...the 'My child needs to be engaged' argument. Spare me.

Here's the thing, amongst the maths, English and History, schools also teach life skills; timekeeping, taking turns, how to behave in civilised society (since patently some students are not taught these things at home) As a conscientious (ex) teacher I saw it as a large part of my job to teach students that life is not all fun and games. At times you have to work. You may not want to, the job may have boring aspects, but there you are, that's life. That is how you maintain paid employment and contribute to the society that paid for you education.

I am not an entertainer. If I wanted to be one of those I'd have gone on the stage. I teach (well I did, till I escaped to Higher Education) I tried to make the activities as interesting and engaging as possible but the fact is, you can't engage all students all of the time, especially when there are other distractions, hormones, mobile phones, the kid kicking off in the corner. Learning to ignore the distractions and settle down to work is a valuable life skill. Realising that there is satisfaction to be had in mastering a tricky subject rather than giving up and complaining it's 'boring' is another. Learning that, while you may be the centre of the universe at home, you are just one of the crowd outside it and that this is not necessarily a tragic event is yet another of life's lessons that are best learnt sooner rather than later.

Completely agree, slug!

easier to blame the parents than try to engage the kids?

RE the Op - saying she has no or little SEN training - spend some of the holidays doing some bloody reading - I find this a spurious argument - most professionals i.e. lawyers/doctors/nurses etc think its their duty to keep up their professional knowledge and to expand it continuously in their own time - why should teachers be any different ? Saying that all the teachers who have taught with my 3 SEN children have been fantastic and even the LA who have been with my oldest has joined the Autistic society to learn as much as she can. She gets paid about 1/3 of a teacher salary and no holiday pay. Attitude and responsibility can make a big difference with both parents and teachers!

??I?m not an entertainer?? - yes but you could at least try to be interesting and relevant! There are some teachers who get better results than others, as there are schools that get better results under similar circumstance i.e. all those pesky SEN kids / English second language/poor backgrounds etc - the difference is that they engage the pupil and make them want to learn - - Why should we spare you the engagement argument, just because its an uncomfortable one to answer?

The dfficulty with the engagement argument is that what engages one child doesn't engage another. For example, in my tutor group I have children who will complain if we do anything other than role-play and those who would rather eat their own heads than act. As teachers we try to meet this range of different learning styles, but inevitably we can't produce lessons that every SINGLE child finds exhilarating.

A member of our SLT told me that you can only be classed as an outstanding teacher if the children are so engaged they don't want to leave at the end of the lesson. Doesn't that demonstrate an excellent understanding of teenagers?

Welshwoman I agree. It's easy to access training nowadays with t'internet. My union is always sending me stuff I can do. In fact I've just enrolled on a behaviour course (courtesy of my union) which will give me credits towards my masters. Everyone's a winner!

Back to the original poster though, starlight express wasn't talking about SEN, EAL or those with identified needs and challenges.
Just the rude, aggressive and self-centred ones.
One of the latest initiatives is about Rights and Responsibilities. Many children and adults know their rights but fewer know and shoulder their responsibilities.
It's entertaining sometimes watching my lovely, motivated and polite class members turn into ranting screaming individuals when they are arguing with their parent in the playground after school.
I live in the same city I teach in, and often meet families I know out of school. Had parents see me in the supermarket and ask me to stop their child doing something stupid like trolley racing and demanding stuff with added tantrums.

Cornsilk - you sound fab and motivated - SEN information is soooo availed these days you almost trip over it - there is almost too much available - too many leaflets and courses and not always enough practical help on the ground

Goblinchild you also sound fab and a super teacher just somehow not quite into the logic of your own argument and shoot yourself in the foot by admitting you obviously manage to ?engage? - ?teach? and motivate the majority of your pupils the majority of the time in a ??difficult?? school with people looking to you for guidance outside of school. - There is no reason for the majority of other teachers not to be able to do this

I personally think most do! - Just find it annoying that some teachers are like well teaching would be great except for the kids!!!

And the Op did mention SEN specifically - even gave us our own category and said she probably knew little about it!!!

No one is asking for 100% engagement 100% of the time - We just want teachers to acknowledge that they have some bearing on how our children learn

Re the whole inclusion issue - yes it?s under funded and under resourced but teachers also have a responsibility to stand up and be counted on this - ASK for risk assessments, push for dyslexia assessments - make some noise!!!! If it?s not safe for children in your class room because of 1 child - do something about it.

The only complaint I would have about teachers in general is that they don?t challenge the system enough - think it?s a girly polite thing sometimes - particularly in primary school where there is a very girly culture thing going on. I say this after 8 years of challenging the system as a parent and being told by teachers and SENCO?s - ?? well the system works like this?? ?? you have to fill in this form and wait 12 months??

The logic of my argument is that inadequate parenting creates discipline problems in the classroom.
Poor parenting skills are frequently unrelated to the income, home circumstances or education of the parents.
My son has AS, so when he understands what a school rule is, he tends to keep it and be puzzled why other children don't.
If the rule is no phones turned on and used in school time, why do fellow pupils use them in lessons?
Why do stroppy children spend ten minutes of a lesson arguing with the teacher about some miniscule issue that is unrelated to the lesson?
Why when a young enthusiastic teacher took his class outside with digital cameras for each group to use, in an exciting and well thought out lesson, did two of the cameras go missing? In an affluent neighbourhood?

Both of my teens are often shocked by how they see some other family relationships not working, the disrespect, swearing and materialistic demands of the children. And the way that parents moan and whine and complain about them, whilst swinging from giving in to demands or refusing in an arbitrary manner with no logic or pattern behind the behaviour of either parent or child. Sometimes when observing a spat, it's hard to distinguish the behaviour of the adult from that of the child.

Completely agree Goblinchild.

Schools were never set up to provide parenting - it's the role of the parents to do that. Unfortunately the breakdown of the family unit in society has created a swathe of problems which other institutions are then expected to mop up.

And education is first in line to take the hit, simply because education is complusory until age 16 and therefore schools have no choice but to accept what's thrown at them.

There is a complete blurring of parent/child roles in some families. Just yesterday I have had to deal with the dysfunctional behaviour of a teenager whose difficulties are absolutely nothing to do with learning or education, but centred on the fact that his mother left his father, then shacked up with a new guy and had a new baby a few weeks ago. The message to this teenager is 'you're rejected'. He has minimal contact with his natural father, and feels like an outcast in his own home. Meanwhile, we're expected to get him through his GCSES (he's a bright lad, capable of A grades) and what's worse, staff will be measured on whether he gets those grades. Ludicrous!

Yes some parents are terrible I?m not trying to deny this - But why do some teacher /schools manage to be outstanding under very difficult circumstances and others are crap?

Why do some mainstream teachers manage to get themselves trained/ informed about sen, others just say well it wasn't in my course at uni?

I?m not trying to say schools should parent or be able to ??fix?? society but some teachers are obviously way more committed and involved, than others who just think the holidays are fab and the kids are a PITA and parents should just shut up!

I guess because you get outstanding, crap, and everything in between in every job/career welshwoman!

Teachers get paid too much.

tee hee.....

The secret to good school is a good Head. Just moved mine to a Catholic Primary school which has just got outstanding....not unusual for Catholic schools, can anyone tell me why?

atheist btw

I don't know pp - why not ask those teachers? Or are you too jealous of how much they're paid to approach them?

Agree with violethill, teachers are part of the real world too, and the whole range of personalities is reflected in that.

"Why do some mainstream teachers manage to get themselves trained/ informed about sen, others just say well it wasn't in my course at uni?'

Depends what you're interested in as to how much of your own time you spend on finding out about stuff.
A teacher who is poor on SEN may be fantastic at using ICT in the classroom and spend hours finding out about that, making online resources and with a moodle to die for, or be amazing at extending G&T very able children, or be prepared to run endless after school sports clubs for free.

Thread's like this really annoy me. Ds has had some foul teachers, there's one who really shouted at him, told him he was an embarassment. Why? Because he sneezed 3 times in a row whilst he was singing in the carol concert. How do I know? Because I was there! Ds quite possibly has aspergers and I know he has problems when he's given free time because he doesn't know what to do with himself. No matter how many times I tell them this it never makes a difference because they don't listen! Then they act as if it's a big shock. Then there's the head who doesn't believe ds had a group of boys trying to pull his pants down because he felt too embarrassed to tell a teacher and waited for me to collect him. The same head was told by a child ds is a swearer as he was swinging a rope, pretending it was a grapple hook, a child overheard him talking, reported him to a teacher for swearing and he's been labled as a swearer because (according to the head) "what sort of child say's grapple hook?" He play's runescape, medieval game on the web, which has....grapple hooks!
He's a very bright boy, always has been, do they listen to anything I say when I tell them this? No. Then 2 months later when he's bored out of his brain and I've had enough of trying to get him to talk to the teacher, they will say "Oh, he is very bright isn't he!" Then there's the asthma, he run's and coughs alot, he was told off for coughing as he couldn't catch his breath (I did write "Asthmatic" on all of his forms). I'm bashing my head against a wall constantly! If I say anything then I'm not supporting them/pushy mum/snob as he's from a private school. I have no idea how to raise my child according to some of you lot, despite being his mother, having trained as a paeds nurse and having studied child psychology at University level, having friends who are teachers/psychologists/therapists/counsellors/doctors etc. You all know better then me!

Rant over. Give us a bloody break!

FluffyBunnyGoneBViolethill - I so agree you get a range - its normal - It?s just annoying that some teachers use parents as a reason for being crap. Most people have to deal with complaints, challenges and enquiries whist doing their job - some (very few!!!) need to get over themselves and look at their general pay and conditions (index linked- final salary pension) compared to real world jobs

Golblinchild - again I agree - I love the fact that one of our teachers is a maths wizz as one of mine is gifted - BUT doing a basic amount of research/ reading to enable you to do your job - and SEN kids are like it or not part of your job - is not too much to ask . I can?t decide not to read and implement that latest h&s legislation or tax requirements because their boring and gosh donnt ??engage me?? - that has a familiar ring to it. Get real its part of your job (You are an obviously a fab person but seam intent on defending anything a teacher i.e. Op says even when it is going against what you obviously do yourself???)

Fluffy - I feel for you - even though our school is brilliant most of the time their have been moments when you feel like having - ??I have Aspergers ??- tattooed on Ds?s head or him wearing a tea shirt saying ?my autism may not show on my face but it does on yours?

As a parent in this situation you can either

A) put up and shut up but sit back and watch oyour child look miserable, talk to them about the 'complaints', nod at the right places, say you'll talk to your child/discipline them, which you do to no avail as it's a problem they are having at school and you can't be there to hold their hand, dread collecting them, achieves nothing except for the 'naughty' label your child can't remove no matter what they do.

B) Go in time after time, repeating yourself, making you look like the pushy parent from hell, try your damn hardest to support them but see it's clearly getting neither you nor your child anywhere.

C) Move them somewhere else in the hope that the new school will be more understanding, patient and academically challenging enough so they don't get bored and play up, risky as it rocks the boat, moves them away from friends they may have made but gives them a fresh start (again).

I can't win no matter what I try. I'm waiting for a head as, again, I'm taking option c. Apparantly they have a specialist senco, access to eductional psychologists and experience in helping children with aspergers but yet again, I'm rocking the boat, will look like that 'know it all prents who thinks their child does no wrong and the school's always at fault' yet the current school's reference on ds because of all the 'swearing' etc will make them think he's a little sod so h'll be on that list before he even starts. If anyone knows how I can resolve this, please share!

Fluffy, I've got a son with Aspergers's, he's 14. I've always gone in for option B, but collected ammo for the meetings, kept logs and diaries, always communicated through email and letter, kept minutes of meetings.
Have you got a copy of the SEN COP? Packed with info and phrases and chapter and verse to quote.

I have nothing! I can't get anyone to take me seriously enough to get him assessed so I'm trying to do it off my own back. He was at a school for 5 years with a head who was trained in SN in America, lots of experience. I asked her several times if she thought he needed an assessment 'oh no, he just needs to learn how to behave' She leaves, next head "do you think he needs an assessment for Aspergers?" "no, you're a single mum, he's reacting to not having a male influence in the house. They best thing you can do for him is send him to a strict boys boarding school" , next school "We can support him. If he needs an assessment we'll let you know" current school "I've never met a child like him. He speaks to the staff as if he's an adult, he needs some help making friends as he winds people up..."I could go on but can you see what I'm up against?

I've got a counsellor coming to see me on Wednesday as I really have had enough. He's lovely at home, really caring (to me), helpful, kind (to me), no skills in empathy whatsoever, we can be watching something on TV, I'm almost crying it's so sad, he just say's "Yeah well, at last it's not us". not alot of social skills, innapropriate, likes to stick to the rules etc.

Fluffy - your son has Aspergers or HFA or something pretty dam close - Get an assessment - you as a parent can request one from the LEA ed phych or pester your GP - or if necessary go private but, make sure its an assessor the LEA will recognise - the Autistic society are fab for advice - Your best weapon is to be a parent B with lots of knowledge about your legal rights. Aspergers and HFA are officially a ?disability? and do give you much more leverage than a general social dysfunction label

Thanks. That's what I'm thinking aswell but no one seems to take me seriously.
The counsellor that's coming to see me on Wednesday can refer him and the prospective school have access to their own so I'm going through the motions at the moment. I think the new school is more structured, at the moment the timetable changes weekly so he never knows where he is whis really isn't helping. He's been bullied aswell so I want to get him away from that (and the head that think's he's a liar). The new school is private so I'll see how it pans out. They seem really supportive though. Ds is great in small groups or 1:1, PE/lunch time/play time he's really silly though, I think from what he's been telling me he's been trying to make as many friends as he can by making them laugh. I see his idea though it just doesn't work out, last week for example he was throwing a hoop in the air and repeating 'hoopla'. A girl took great offence to this, asked him to stop so he moved somewhere else and carried on, then she told the teacher, he was asked again to stop but moved and continued. The gild then pulled the hoop off him, shouted at him, he shouted back, she started to pull him so he kicked her to get her off him. To me, the girl was out of order and should have moved away from him if he was annoying her but to the head, ds made this situation occur. I want to back them up, I went through annoying behaviour with ds and why he should have stopped but you really do think . Later, he was helping put some things away using a wheelbarrow, she was standing by the door and he was heading towards her. Rather then her move out of the way, she shouted at him, grabbed him again and dug her nails into his cheek. Again, this was 'ds's fault' as he 'could have told her to move'. Ds is always wrong no matter what at this school!

I teach a talented child whose parents have told him he does not need to work as they are wealthy enough for him never to worry about it.
he can be a nightmare
BUT I don't blame his parents, I have to deal with this child and engage him and excite him..I find that a challenge