To want parents to stop blaming their child's teacher for everything?

[starlightexpress]

I'm just so sick of reading parents on here moaning about how crap their child's teacher is for one reason or another (not aimed at any particular thread this evening, btw).

In any given class of thirty-three, seventy percent of my time is spent dealing with about three kids who couldn't give a fuck. They don't want to learn, they don't want anyone else to learn. I'm not talking SEN, here, I'm talking just plain naughty.

As far as I'm concerned, the majority of the time when a parent is on here moaning about how shitty their child's teacher is, it falls into one of four categories.

Either your child is:

a)Badly brought up and you're making excuses for them.

b)So-called "SEN" which means they can behave when they want to, but misbehave most of the time using said SEN as an excuse. You allow them to do this because you prefer not to take any responsibility for their behaviour.

c)Genuinely suffering from an SEN, which I probably know very little about and am given little support (either in terms of training or TAs or resources)for.

d)Suffering from the fall out of "inclusion" which means that so much of my time is spent firefighting (see a, b and c) that I don't have the time to spend on your child that they deserve.

Of course there are crap teachers. There are also medicore teachers and there are good teachers who have crap days and make crap judgements sometimes. But mostly it is not your child's teacher's fault.

If you are a C or a D parent, then get thee to the Head, the governers, the local MP and kick up an almighty fuss. You're right to be upset, I don't blame you, I'm not happy about it either but what can I do? I'm doing my very very best but I can't fight the system on my own.

If you're an A or a B parent, do what the fuck you want - that's what you do anyway, and I'm not interested in your whining.

Before you ask, I teach in an inner city secondary school. Not the worst school in the whole world but not great either.

I'm a relatively experienced teacher with a decent results record. I don't have classroom management issues - last Ofsted (they actally watched some of my lesson) they said that this was a strength, fwiw. It's worth nothing actually, as Ofsted couldn't identify one end of a decent lesson from another, but I know their opinion matters to a lot of you.

Go on, flame me, I will have heard worse at parents evening, I can take it.

AIBU?

Just checking!

a long time!

Violet hill - not trying to demean teachers or the job - I should have probably said commercial world

It?s a tough job and to be honest - I have a lot of sympathy for much of what the Op says -as have friends who are teachers BUT as a parent of 3 SN kids, I find the bits about I donnt know much about special needs and inclusion personally irritating

Most professionals expand their knowledge and deal with stuff outside their comfort range - its part of what being a ??professional is!!
Most people deal with ??problems?? and questions /challenges as part of their jobs - maybe their should be some filter but also schools in general are a bit rubbish at communicating with parents
If inclusion isn?t working then teachers need to stand up individually and as profession and say so

The drop out rate - ? Lots of people who have pretty useless degrees unless you are uber talented i.e. Media / Fine art etc go in to teaching because it looks better than McDonalds and then realise it is actually a very challenging job that you need a certain ??calling?? for

And you teachers being inconstant in your arguments - yes because you are picking and choosing what you answer. Why should the op not update her skills????

BUT MOST TEACHER DO A GREAT JOB BUT NOT ALL
YES SOME PARENTS ARE RUBBISH BUT NOT ALL AND CERTAINLY NOT MOST!!!!!

Because you want me to use my own time to research your particular child's SEN.

I don't know what it is, but let's say it's dyspraxia. How long will "updating my knowledge" take, do you reckon? Internet research, reading books, talking to support organisations, requesting materials from educational providers...At least a few hours. Probably more.

Assuming that the other nine SEN kids in that class have a different SEN, then the same time again for them.

Then there's the G&T kids. Their parents would like me to do all the research necessary to help their child reach their potential and be stretched.

Then there's the plain old planning and resourcing of a lesson

And that's JUST ONE CLASS.

I have a child who needs my time in the evenings, and I cannot and will not prioritise everything that ideally I would like to do for school over him. I do as much as I can. I don't leave work until 5pm. I work every weekday evening after he's gone to bed for a couple of hours. There is a limit to how much I can be expected to do.

I'm not saying that this research shouldn't be done, nor am I saying that I should never be asked to do any work out of school time simply that I am not given the time, class-size or information to make this possible for each and every child.

Fwiw, I do try. My OP said "little" knowledge about SEN. That means what it says. I'm not an expert on each and every SEN I encounter, so I try to get a bit of info from the SENCO and the internet, but I can't spend hours on each one making myself the expert you (understandably) want me to be.

This is what I was getting at in the OP. You are blaming me. I am saying that I understand your upset and frustration but it isn't my fault.

What do you want me to do? Honestly? "Stand up and say that inclusion isn't working"? Read the TES. Teachers have been saying this for years, it falls on deaf ears. So who do you want me to say it to? I'll gladly do it, if you can suggest something reasonable.

I think you prove my point - yes I do expect you to use your own time to research my Childs particular sen

9 unique sen per lesson????? - I think you exaggerate - possibly to make a point, but it still withers my heart to hear a teacher say that my child, who you will teach at least for a year if not 6, is not important enough for you to spend what say 2 hours reading a little about it - Knowledge that will last you a life time of teaching and most of which is transferable from one SEN situation to another

Look up dyspraxia.co.uk under ??what is dyspraxia??and ??hings teacher should know ?? - 2 whole pages - or ask for a leaflet form your LEA

So you have kids - so do lots of doctors/nurses/policemen/accounts - god, every profession there is and we all spend, my gosh yes our own time, improving our skills - most of us donnt get the extended holidays that teacher do either

Yes I know that the Tes has voice its opinion, but a lot of inclusion was also based on what teacher were saying in the 1970?s and official wheels move slowly

What do I expect you to do? - I expect you to care

I don't have a problem with the researching required to meet the needs of my class, it actually makes my job easier to understand more about how to help them learn more efficiently.

The problem I have is with those that don't have any needs other than a lack of consistent parenting, clear rules and consequences for breaking them, adequate diets etc.
I have two children, one with sn. I have friends and relations with children, and we know how to parent them. So is the answer to be after school clubs for parents in how to communicate with their children and how to begin to raise them as civilised, caring and able to take responsibility for themselves and their actions?
It would make the lives and learning of the sn, g&t, EAL and quiet and shy children a lot easier if we just boarded the discipline problems and acted in loco parentis properly. Doing it for a few hours a day, 5 days a week isn't enough. Too much reinforcement for horrible behaviour and egotistical responses at home.

Every child matters. Including those without SEN who are poorly parented. If they are poorly parented then your impact as a teacher is even more important.

welshwoman.

Yes, actually, ten SEN in one class. No exaggeration there.

I do spend my own time improving my skills. I get to school at 8am, I leave at 5. I work for two hours most weekday evenings just to get my job done. It's not enough time to do everthing, including being fully clued up on all the SEN that I have to deal with. Sorry that you think this is not adequate, where do you suggest I take the time from? I suppose I could get up at four to do it. Is that what you're suggesting?

I've done (at least) two hours research on Dyspraxia in my time as a teacher. I've said that I do the research that I can. I'm not an SEN denier and I'm being not deliberately obstructive, I try to apply the little knowledge that I have. I am just acknowledging that I am not in any way an expert on Dyspraxia and I'm sure that if I was given more time and more training then I could meet the needs of my dyspraxic students better.

You still haven't told me what you want me do, after telling me that I have to "stand up and say that inclusion isn't working". Apart from "care". Of course I care. I don't see how that improves the situation for anybody.

So "official wheels move slowly"? Oh, I see , you mean that I just need to wait and hope it will improve? But you previously said that I needed to "stand up" and do something.

Oh I see , teachers in the 1970s are to blame so I am therefore guilty by association?

Hang, on, I've read that last sentence of your again. You know what? Go fuck yourself. This is exactly what I was talking about in my OP. You want your child's SEN and the way the educational system is faling them to be all my fault? Fine. I'm a shitty teacher. You're right, I don't care. I just couldn't give a shit. Happy now?

The whole point of this thread was not the genuine SEN children, but those who are simply badly behaved and whose parents insist on covering their behaviour problems with a suggestion of SEN or lame excuses. Of course we research genuine SEN. Even as a secondary school teacher with 250 pupils we are expected to address adapting access to the curriculum we deliver. However, it is unreasonable for parents to expect all the adaptations to be made by the teacher, absolving their child of any need to try to overcome whatever difficulties they may.

I used to teach a CP child who by any standards was physically SEN. He was only marginally SEN in my language lessons as he could write unaided and my classroom was on the ground floor. I thought through any physical activity we had to do and consider whether this boy (and the other little CP girl in the same class) would be able to do it.

He was also however appallingly badly behaved as he had been indulged by his parents, and they refused to apply any discipline to him regarding his behaviour. He was a cheerful, bright, funny little lad, but he could be a seriously disruptive element in his lessons, and was frequently appalling rude to his TAs.

Quite frankly, the most difficult bit to deal with were his behaviour issues. His CP barely registered.

Oh, and regarding numbers- yes 5-6 genuine SEn children plus another 5 or so "EBD" (ie badly behaved) kids would have been normal in any class of 25-26 in my last secondary school. So, given that I taught ten classes, that's 50 to 60 kids per year (and obviously several times per week) each with individual requirements, PLUS 50-60 "EBD". Some were simply badly behaved but still had the EBD label that had to be catered for. Those are the problematic ones.

I think duchesse makes a valid point.

Almost every teacher I know would have no issue with reading up and getting skilled up about a specific area of SEN. It's part of our professional development, and enables us to do the job more effectively, so we're hardly going to avoid doing that are we? But actually, 99 times out of a 100 it's not a specific SEN which takes up a a disporportionate amount of time. It's the kids who have been badly parented, with inconsistent boundaries, who display the same disrespectful behaviour towards their peers and staff time and time again. I've got news for you welshwoman - you don't solve that by reading up for a couple of hours. If only it were that simple!

I see welshwoman refers to 'extended holidays' in her last post, and I believe earlier posts mentioned 'final salary index-linked pensions' amongst other things, so I'm picking up on more than a litte in her posts!!

Finally I think starlight makes an absolutely valid point that teaching, like some other careers, is one of those open ended things where you could work for literally every waking hour and still the job wouldn't be done. So everyone has to have a cut off point. I work from 8 until at least 5, but sometimes 6 or 7 in school. Then there is the marking, prep, reporting etc to be done each evening and weekend. Most teachers I know don't take a lunch break either - we pretty much work straight through. So after putting in the hours I do, yes, I do switch off and spend time with my family.

'Every Child Matters' - including teachers' children!

bigeyes you might find my post patronising but I find yours fundamentally depressing. Teachers who insult children should be out the profession.
Don't blame the systems, make them work for you. There are schools where difficult pupils and difficult parents can be managed and have their needs met. Do you have colleagues in other schools who seem content? I'm sorry if this seems patronising but you yourself said you are on the verge of resigning - I am just trying to help you refind your vocation...

God yes- I used to do 5-5, 5 days a week, plus a fair few hours at the weekend, producing varied, challenging and differentiated lessons so that the little illdisciplined brutes insufficiently entertained wouldn't go off on one after 5 minutes. My colleagues were doing the same. Interestingly even OFSTED noted in an inspection how singularly unengaged a fair few pupils were despite the very high quality teaching.

My children were definitely getting the raw end of the deal- I hardly saw them for two years.

Unsurprisingly I opted for my own children and gave up teaching.

Blimey. How did I miss this?

I know a reasonable amount about SEN (and SN in fact). I would say that consistently poor behaviour, for whatever reason, would constitute an SEN because it affects the child's learning. I was lucky enough to do a teaching practice in a special school, have taught in the SEN department of a mainstream school, and have done a psychology degree since qualifying as a teacher. Now I teach Science, and often, but not always, manage to put into practice at least some of the things I've learned. To those who thought that 9 in a class was exaggerating though, I'd refer you to my year 8 class of 28. One has no SEN at all, 6 are EAL, and all the rest are on the SEN register for a wide variety of reasons, 5 with statements. So yes, planning for that class is, um, interesting. I met a nice cross section of parents at parents' evening, and although it did make me go "aha" whe I met some of them, I rather agree with Beetroot that my job is to teach that child irrespective of where he or she is coming from.

I see welshwoman refers to 'extended holidays' in her last post, and I believe earlier posts mentioned 'final salary index-linked pensions' amongst other things, so I'm picking up on more than a litte in her posts!!

Yes Violethill, I am envious - you have enviable conditions - the fact that the OP works till gosh 5 and some hours at the weekend makes me smile - then again I think 3 months child friendly hoildays would also make me smile -

starlightexpress - no wonder you have problems with parents

clemette thank you I think you have summed up alot of what I have been trying to say -

welshwoman - no wonder you have problems with teachers. You have completely unfair and unrealistic expectations of them, not to mention an almighty chip on your shoulder about the holidays.

By the way, for the third time as you seem to keep missing it, I work 8-5 in school then two hours at home after my son has gone to bed. Plus some (not all) weekend days.

Yes, of course the long holidays are a perk, but our pay takes this into account.

Just out of intersest, what are your working hours?

Clemette,

I get what you're saying about moving somewhere with better conditions if the conditions are getting you down, but...someone has to work in the truly terrible schools, surely?

Obviously with an aim to working as part of a team to improve the school, but still, it's a pretty hellish job . I speak as someone who has worked in a school in Special Measures. Actually I really thrived there, but there were days when I was heartily sick of it. The pupils, the parents, SLT... all of it.

I agree about the holidays and the pay and the pension.
I've been doing this job for 25 years and I'm amazed that more people haven't caught on to what a great deal it is, and that so many teachers drop out of the system before ever really getting the benefits.

Starlight, read most of my posts not just the bits directed at you - I have no problem with teachers have 2 as close friends, also 2 in the family - I think it?s a hard job - I also, have as I say 3 kids with sn and get on really well with all my children?s teachers - one of whom tutors my son in the holidays for free (I do buy very nice presents thought) -

The teachers at my school have stood up and made a noise along with myself and I must say the persistence of the SENCO when my DS1 was 4/5 to get the support he needed, is the reason why he is now going to a selective high school with a gifted maths program - rather than a local SN school where he would still be learning to tie his shoe laces.

You have changed from I know nothing to I actually do loads and as I said,not underestimating the number of children with SEN, but 9 UNIQUE sen in every class?

I personally work from home for myself, mostly very early mornings - all day whist kids in school and then after they are in bed till very late - my choice as I need to be there for my kids. I earn a good wage but nothing like I used to before I had a child with major SN

Have you seen average graduate wages recently? Teachers are not 1/4 less I can assure you

And you?re right I don?t have enough knowledge to question the bigger picture re the TES etc that was all pure waffle as I doont know what should happen - but I do know that on a personal level the attitude and sense of responsibility of a good teacher can transform a child life

Goblinchild - please donn't break ranks - you need to find something bad about the hoildays and pension etc

Welshwoman - I think you ought to go into teaching - you seem obsessed and envious with the pay and conditions!

What, the job doesn't fit in with you wanting to be around for your kids? But five minutes ago it was soooo family-friendly!

"You have changed from I know nothing to I actually do loads..."

I'm sorry but I don't know where you're getting this from.

I originally said:

"... SEN, which I probably know very little about and am given little support (either in terms of training or TAs or resources)for."

How have I ever devaiated from that?

I have said that I do my best, that I've I've done a couple of hours research on Dyspraxia. That means I know very little about it and does not make me an expert and therefore am not fully meeting the needs of the student.

Either you think that is woefully inadequate ("nothing") or you think that it is plenty ("loads"). Please do clarify. If you think it's the former, please do tell me when you would like me to get the extra time from.

I have never , not once, said that I resent children with SEN or blame their parents. So I'm starting to really resent your implication that I don't care, don't try my best with these children or have the "attitute and sense of responsibilty" that you would like me to have.