To remove the toy baby feeding bottle from my dd's new doll bath and feeding set?

[Springfleurs]

I was brought up to think that breast feeding was a strange and rather disgusting thing to do.

Luckily managed to overcome this myself and b/f both dc for 5 months and 14 months respectively.

Took dd to a toy shop today and she chose a doll bath and feeding set. Unpacked it for her when we got in and there is a feeding bottle in there. I know it might seem a bit precious but it irritated me slightly, as though it was a mandatory piece of equipment for all babies/dolls.

Or

I am taking it all rather too seriously?

LadyThompson - there is no evidence that any organisations set out to demoralise ff mums. Without wishing to be personal or mean, these sort of accusations do sound a bit bonkers.

Re: guidelines - I agree with Tiktok that all that can be done has been done to make bottlefeeding safe in the UK. The bottom line is that babies are designed to breastfeed. They generally feed little and often and their immune systems are immature. Having to make up loads of bottles when you're exhausted is tough - parents do their best, but with bottlfeeding sometimes it's hard to know what's absolutely safe and what's not, with a baby who's feeding in that chaotic way that newborns sometimes do.

For the third and final time - I said (or at least meant) that research which may have had a decent intent is used on boards such as these to suggest that ff is wicked and dangerous.

It.ain't.

Furthermore, I think it's frankly insidious that the implication in some of these reports that formula per se is the cause of a huge, newsbreaking amout of gastroenteritis when, from what Tiktok was saying, in a lot of cases it would appear that it is 'user error' with the serving/making up of the formula. I don't think enough has been done to make ff safe in the UK. I think much more could be done. Or do you think we shouldn't bother, in the hope that more people will breastfeed?

LadyT, you said 'organisations'. If you have changed your mind and your feelings about sticks and beating refer only to a handful of people on these boards, then just say so!

My own organisation (NCT) will not train anyone who has negative impulses towards formula feeding mothers, or who has any sort of missionary zeal towards formula feeding babies. The occasional person like that who explores training with us is turned away, or else self-select themselves out when they see we are not what they want.

I don't know of any organisation that does criticise ff mothers, to be honest.

Aaaaaaaaargh!

I actually meant these boards, as I have said four times now. Reading back, I can see what I said was unclear, however. I meant transmuted by people on these boards, not by the people doing the research. Badly worded due to the heat, I am afraid!

Tiktok, I am heartened to hear that about the NCT. I am glad that's what they are supposed to be like. I never got to find out myself though, as they were down on women who were having a cs round my way (not saying all NCT groups are like that, but some are) and so I didn't hang around to hear what the prevailing views on formula were. But that's a whole other thread!

I don't think anyone has talked about an 'outbreak' let alone a 'huge' one, of gastroenteritis, Lady T.

We're actually pointing to an endemic , unavoidable consequence of using formula. It is irrelevant whether the consequence comes direct from the product itself (it does) or if it comes from the way it is used (it does that, too), or if it comes from something(s) lacking in the formula (it does that, as well).

The risk of the consequences can be reduced by

i) care in the manufacture and production and packaging and storing and transporting - and we have laws to oversee that

ii) care in the way the equipment is handled - and we are well-informed of this in the UK, on the whole, and my own observation of parents is that they take good care to keep things clean

iii) care in the way the product is prepared - I think there is room for improvement here, but as time goes on, the confusion will be lessened. There are plenty of leaflets from many organisations (including NCT, including UNICEF, including WHO) that repeat the instructions clearly

But even with attention paid to all this, you are asking for the moon for all the risks of gastro to be reduced to zero. Maybe you have some other ideas on how we could get a bit closer to the moon?

(In any case, gastro is only one difference between bf and ff. It gets a lot of attention because it's reasonably easy to research and measure, and is fairly common)

I repeat - you said organisations. Not people doing the research. Organisations. You know - like groups of people organised to follow a particular programme and policy?

You didn't 'word it badly'. You said the word!

Oh I have met women who have shared the more strident opinions on this thread re. how awful formula is, and shared then freely, while working for organisations who would obviously never condone that approach. Unfortunately some people do not seem to be "on message" as to what is acceptable to say and what not, when discussing feeding options.

I have also met women who have asked me aggressively how I fed DD, when I said BF they looked hacked off and asked how long. My response to this question was met with palpable disappointment, presumably as they could then not proceed to tell me how shit a mother I was, and they were unable to feel smug.

To deny there are people around like this is silly - just look at this thread for example - and of course some will espouse these opinions while acting officially for pro BF organisations. Exactly because people feel so strongly, the ones motivated to actually go and do something, may not always be the most sensitive when doing the job.

Spam, there are people with views of varying hues everywhere

But if you have come across individuals actually working for organisations but who are not 'on message' then the good thing is you can complain about them - if they are working for them, even as a volunteer, they should be working within some framework of supervision.

Following up:

"of course some will espouse these opinions while acting officially for pro BF organisations"

?????

Where have you seen or heard this?

Ok. Right:

Outbreak - perhaps wrong word. Incidence, I will say instead.

Huge - £50 million worth or gastroenteritis sounds huge to me. Isn't it?

I am not asking for the risks of gastro to be reduced to zero for ff babies. I am not a fool. But if people were that well informed on the safest ways to prepare and keep and use formula, why are there (as you say) lots of confused threads on Mumsnet about this, week after week?

I think, given the numbers of people who chose to formula feed (or even ff when they haven't chosen to!) from my own experience of formula (my DD is 6 months and so it's ongoing) the information on the best and safest ways to use it aren't clear enough, and if this £50 million figure is right (and you all keep telling me it is) it all needs to be made much, much clearer. No one went into it with me, that's for sure (I mean no health professional.) There were no leaflets that I was given about the safest way to use formula. I got my info from the box, and there could have been more of it.

NCT

NHS ante natal

The problem is that meeting one loon destroys all the good work done by all the others for that organisation. You only remember the loon.

Whoops - that should have read £50 million worth OF gastroenteritis.

I think that may be yet another different thread though, and we will really get bogged down adding it to the mix on here

We have had this conversation before BTW tiktok, I think that the general consensus was that factual sensible information was preferable to strident "telling", from my point of view anyway, and you said fair enough!

It is possible to find candy cigs with their red tips intact!

"I said (or at least meant) that research which may have had a decent intent is used on boards such as these to suggest that ff is wicked and dangerous"

Where has anyone suggested that formula feeding is 'wicked'? Seriously?

'"Furthermore, I think it's frankly insidious that the implication in some of these reports that formula per se is the cause of a huge, newsbreaking amout of gastroenteritis

Which reports are you talking about? I haven't seen anything suggesting a 'huge, newsbreaking amount' of gastroenteritis. What have you seen? Can you link us to it? The studies I have seen simply refer to 'bottlefeeding' and not 'formula'. In any case, IMV it's neither here nor there to what degree the problem is caused by formula itself, or the equipment which is used during feeding. There is no other easy way of giving babies formula other than by bottle when they are having all their feeds this way (appreciate some babies get formula by cup when mum is trying to avoid nipple confusion).

"I think much more could be done".

What would you suggest?

"Or do you think we shouldn't bother, in the hope that more people will breastfeed?"

Don't you think that's a bit harsh?

Don't bother asking gabygirl, people hear what they want to hear, read what they want to read and cherry pick questions to answer.
This thread is making my blood boil.

OMG, I totally forgot about these. They were fantastic! Just melt in your mouth oral satisfaction at it's finest! Another benefit of FF, IMO, is that mom can eat all the chocolate she wants.

I thought that was a benefit of bf
Maybe just a benefit of being a mum!

"There were no leaflets that I was given about the safest way to use formula. I got my info from the box, and there could have been more of it"

The instructions on the back of a tin of formula are pretty detailed in my view.

The confusion that I've seen here on the boards about making up feeds links to the recent recommendations that all feeds are made up fresh with water of 70 degrees or more and used straight away, or to stick to ready made formula

Unfortunately my experience has been that when mums are given this information they often find it unworkable. They can't cope with making up feeds fresh all the time and waiting for them to cool while coping with a hungry baby, and they can't always afford ready made formula. So basically even if parents are told how to make up feeds safely, sometimes it's very difficult for them to follow these recommendations.

Tub those chocolate cigarettes were revolting though. Real cigarettes much nicer.

Stealth I think that your comment can apply equally to both sides of this conversation.

Gaby there are posts on here which basically say that FF is evil, and take it somewhat further to say that babies must not under any circumstances have a bottle ever. However as the more extreme comments were mainly made by the same poster I think it'a probably safe to say that while they upset a lot of people, they probably don't reflect the attitudes of a majority of people on this thread, whichever camp they are in.

LT: I dunno if '£50 million' is 'huge' or not - prob not in the context of the entire NHS budget of £92 billion (thank you, google) but any unnecessary spending is a waste.

Having said that, in the UK, hospitalisation for gastro is not all that common - only the most serious of cases end up in hospital, obviously, and equally obviously, there are vast numbers of mildly poorly babies treated by the GP or just with TLC at home. So the hospitalisation figures stand in for more than the £50 million it appears to cost.

I already said (my point iii) ) that new guidance on formula preparation has some way to go (hence the regular threads) but I do think this is improving. I think people who use formula certainly do need more information on it - I think everyone knows about cleaning bottles and teats, and not using old milk, and boiling the water, and I don't see an information gap there.

I couldn't eat a lot of chocolate while breastfeeding but that doesn't mean that others can't. With FF-you can be sure to not have to alter your diet-a plus maybe. If I had it to do all over again I would def BF-but not for as long as I did-years with each child and I would suck on one of those chocolate cigs while I was doing it!

Gaby I agree with the unworkable aspect of the new formula rules.

I do wonder if it is another ploy from the formula companies. Put the absolute strictist rules possible on and then if anything does go wrong from people not following them they can sue. Plus of course if means much more formula is wasted, so sales go up, or if people can afford it they take the very expensive option of those cartons. To be on the safe side.

A bit like how ketchup now has to be kept in the fridge and used within 6 weeks. That never used to be the case but they take the absolute most cautious approach possible, to avoid any possible sueing situations and having a happy side effect of much more sales...

Lovely spam-on the contrary-those chocolate cigs were heaven on earth as I recall. Your taste buds have obviously been tainted by the real thing.