what is everyone elses opinions?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

Ok was just talking to my friend and we were discussing baby P and the sentences given to the scum who killed him. My friend said they were fair sentences and I said they were not and that no sentenced served in a prison where they get 3 square meals a day, recreation time where they have games consoles, pool tables, etc, a bed, and everything else is a fair sentence and that scum like that deserve no less than a death sentence.
Now she doesn't agree she thinks that it is unfair to the families of the murderer to suffer...I on the other hand am not of the same mind set....what do you ladies think?

I can't bear the blood seeking revenge mentality. What happened to the baby is unbelievably awful. Obviously. And I imagine that equally the adults involved had horrific pasts. It's not an excuse but a reality that should not be ignored.

This link is not about child murderes but interesting stil about what abusers can be a bout and how we react in society (it's about chris Langham but I think the same ideas although much more extreme can be applied in this case).

www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/valerie-sinason-criminals-like-langham-are-constructed-no t-born-460283.html

You're right Oilfin.

In order to put yourself in other's shoes and say I was abused and it was wrong therefore it would be wrong to do so to others, you need to have a number of things.

Firstly you need the knowledge that abuse is wrong. Not always easy if your abuser has always told you that it's how people express their love, or perhaps told you that they are only doing it because you are evil and dirty.

You also need the ability to care about others. If there has never been anyone in your life who has shown you love and affection, then what model of empathy do you hhave? Most likely none.

You must also be able to transfer your feelings and emotions onto others, and see them as separate people but still like you. I hurt, I feel pain. Others can do the same.

I can be sad. They can be sad. I can make people sad or angry. Hurting makes me feel bad, therefore it will also make others feel bad.
That again isn't easy if no one has ever cared about you, if there has been no one in your life to demonstrate such basic principles to you via a loving and secure relationship.

Well explained Thunderduck; very thought-provoking stuff.

In my family we foster teenagers who have either just been taken into care or have spent their whole lives in the system. Aside from lots of hideous neglect there was a case where the abuse was sexual and the offender was a sibling. He had also been a victim himself. He's a minor.

Shall we smite him now, while he's too young to get away?

Or help him?

When I get up in the morning I don't have to fight any vicious impulses to hurt others. For me it's easy to be a good person, it's natural. But I've seen with my own eyes that for others this is not the case.

Excellent post, Thunder.

Also, it's hard to word this sensitively, but if you have been in an environment where abuse has been normalised by many adults - possibly everyone around you - perhaps you don't have the same ability to develop a knowledge of right and wrong as everyone else.

Seems that Baby Peter's mother's family were part of a system where Islington children in care and out of it - those who merely had contact with SS - were abused. There were many adults involved. There was a network of paedophiles whose access to children was enabled by everyone working in SS. Those who didn't carry out the abuse colluded - they failed to stop it, they failed to raise the alarm, they failed to protect children.

There were a handful of brave people who tried to raise the alarm, but those in authority - Margaret Hodge and Laming amongst them but dozens of others too - just hushed the whole thing up. They attacked, and sacked, anyone who dared to speak up.

Some of the abusers were eventually sacked but were never prosecuted. One moved to Thailand and abused dozens of children there before he was caught.

That doesn't excuse Baby Peter's mother. She is responsible for her actions. BUT perhaps a childhood where many abusers had access to you and your relatives and other adults were aware but allowed it to continue twisted her thinking.

i think there is a vast difference between looking for reasons for this sort of behaviour and excuses.

wanting to explore why people do such heinous things is surely the way forward in learning how to prevent it

the horrors of institutionalised abuse just keep coming , it is horrific

makipuppy- that is so sad. Your last paragraph makes me want to cry

I admire foster carers immensely and thank you for the work you do.

I'll second what Olifin says Maki.

please read my link!!! It's very good...

Makipuppy- help him yes but why should people/children be allowed to hurt others?
We are supposed to live in a civilised country so why are there murderers, peodophiles and rapist's walking free?

Olifin- if a family memeber commited a serious crime eg: murder, rape etc yes i would expect them to receve whatever the right punishment was. And i know of alot of petty thieves who commit crime just so they get sent back to prison, so it can't be that bad in there can it.

Yes, thunderduck you speak great sense, as have many others on this thread. But there have been some shocking posts too.

In my view society has to take responsibility for its failings, not solve the problem by pulling a lever or pressing a button.

makipuppy, your last sentence really sums it up well, imo.

Thanks to Olifin and Thunder.

The prison system could be so much better if prisoners got proper therapy. This has been proven to massively reduce reoffending. I know you'll think that's too soft, but it sometimes takes us weeks to teach a damaged child why they have to say sorry for something they've done, because they just don't see it as a wrong. We've always managed, but through love and compassion. One child was a vile bully at school (if he beat up your dc you'd have little sympathy, why should you?) alternately screamed, swore and blubbed like a baby begging for hugs for nearly a month before we got him to write an honest letter of apology and only then was he allowed return to school. Kittycats, we didn't let him hurt anyone else, but we didn't give up on him either.

We show our civilization in the way we deal with things, the way we treat our children, our parents and everyone, violent criminals included. Or who are we to speak?

makipuppy I like you.

Makipuppy blushes from atop her high horse...

Some people are unable to thrive out of prison. They've likely been in dentention centres and prisons since they were teens and it's all they know.

They aren't really capable of living independently, of living a normal life and prison pretty much throws them back into society, once their sentence has been served, with very little help to allow them to adjust.

I am actually in favour of longer sentences in many cases, but I am also in favour of prison reform and don't believe that treating people like animals helps anyone.

People go on about three meals a day, comfortable beds, tv etc which is all very well but they don't have their freedom, they don't get to choose when to eat, when to exercise, when to go out, when to receive visitors.
There's always the threat of violence hanging over them.

If you offered me the chance to live in the most luxurious hotel in the world but told me that you'd dictate when I ate, when I slept, when I exercised. I'd decline. I'd rather have my freedom.

Simple then if they don't like the prison service then they should not commit crimes.

I can understand that an abused child can turn out to be a criminal but they still have to take responsibility for their own actions.

If an alcoholic ran your child down would you feel the same? Well its not his/her fault it was the drink.....

This is a very interesting thread. It has not [yet] descended into mayhem and name calling but is an attempt to discuss the issues.

Ok, patronising bit over

I do not agree with death sentencing or forced sterilisation. I do understand the public need to get rid of these problem people entirely. If they are dead they cant do it again, if they are sterile they cannot deliver anymore kids up for abuse and suffering.

But it doesnt get rid of or allow us to understand the next lot of abusers. The sterilisation debate never seems to include the male protaganists in these crimes and even if it did,it would not prevent them having access to children. They tend to prey on vunerable, needy women and God knows there is an neverending supply of them.

Its already been said, looking for reasons does not equate to making excuses. If we dont try and understand how can we begin to prevent these crimes?

To protect children we need to protect children. Our society has to stop demonising kids, pushing them to the fringes, calling them feral and ONLY becoming interested in them if they are cute, adoptable or start producing their own children.

Baby Peter was a beautiful, cute little boy. In a few years time, had he lived, he would be just the sort of child our society loves to hate. Because he most probably would have been an aggressive, truanting, skunk smoking pain in the arse.

His mum was a child once. A beautiful child who was failed and abused and taught to hang on to any man who gave her attention. She is now a selfish, manipulative abuser who rightly deserves to be jailed for a long time. She wasnt born that way.

I am living with the results of childhood abuse and neglect. My DS has loads of issues because of his neglectful birth mother who was abused herself. Do I like her? No. Do I think she should be allowed to keep her other children? No. Do I think she is evil? No.

I do agree they do have to take responsibility for their actions, but there are other factors besides choice involved.

It isn't as black and white as ''don't commit the crime if you don't want to commit the crime''
We need to look at why people commit crime, reasons beyond the obvious e.g financial gain for example.

It isn't nonsense to state that people who have been raised in a particular way, or had a particular experience or who are from a certain background are more likely to commit crimes.
We need to study this in order to help prevent crime, not just dismiss it.

It affects all of us and if we can prevent the abuse, or get help for a child who looks as though they are heading down that road it benefits all of us.

agree thunderduck

it is not as simple as 'if you can;t do the time, don;'t do the crime' the whole point is that their might be predisposition to commit crimes

also, woudl the same apply to a serial shoplifter who was stealing to feed/clothe her children ?

as makipuppy says, the whole of society has to take these sorts of awful crimes on board

Excellent post Chegirl.

Ooo ta

You cant reabilitate these monsters, therapy only works with sane people who do not do these kind of things, why do you think america has the hospital that they get moved too after they finish their prison sentences?

Presumably sane people who don't do these things wouldn't require therapy.

I do agree that it is impossible to rehabilitate some,though I'm thinking of criminals in general, and that it is too risky to allow others out into society, but it may work for some people who have commited crimes.

well Thunderduck with that i do agree with you.... i do think some people who have commited minor crimes can be helped...if they want to sort themselves out .It just keeps comming back to the what do we do about the dangerous ones? ( there is a bit of me that does want "revenge" on child abusers tbh, would be pointless in trying to deny it) There is no perfect solution to this.