what is everyone elses opinions?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

Ok was just talking to my friend and we were discussing baby P and the sentences given to the scum who killed him. My friend said they were fair sentences and I said they were not and that no sentenced served in a prison where they get 3 square meals a day, recreation time where they have games consoles, pool tables, etc, a bed, and everything else is a fair sentence and that scum like that deserve no less than a death sentence.
Now she doesn't agree she thinks that it is unfair to the families of the murderer to suffer...I on the other hand am not of the same mind set....what do you ladies think?

Beanie

er....no

I don't think anyone should be forceably sterilised either - that is barbaric

doesn't mean she should be allowed to raise another child without scrutiny though (which would never happen)

Yes I have, although I don't think you should be asking such a personal question.

I actually don't think people who have had a serious crime impact on their life in a major way should have more say than everyone else in these matters anyway, because they are often too emotionally involved in the situation and are unlikely to make decisions that are right for society as a whole.

That being said, my feeling about the loss I have experienced is that I would like the opportunity to forget, but I won't be allowed that, because the public is always interested in raking it over, again and again, and discussing the criminal, their life and details, and their fate. The victim's story does not sell papers unless it is mainly about the perpetrator.

It is just a spectacle, like people in the past turning up as a family outing at a hanging.

Addict or not, she should not have sat back and watched her baby being abused like that - crap excuse.

Sorry - flame me if you want - but I think people should take responsibilities for their actions and accept the consequences if it results in the death of a child. Infact any form of abuse towards a child should incur consequences, regardless of background. Our pity should be with the children who - often - don't have a voice and don't know where to go for help, NOT the b.....ds who put them in that position

Milly, I didn't mean it to sound so personal it was a question I would ask other, how many have suffered a serious crime and does this aide your opinion in anyway iyswim?

Laurie, she should be sterilised, to prevent her sitting back and allowing it to happen to another child if any man is idiotic enough to hook up with her again.

Under, I agree with you whole heartedly. Its so easy to shift the blame, Oh she was an addict, oh she was scared, oh it was an accident. It IS time that that scum people like these were forced to accept responsibilty face what they have done and be given a stiffer sentence.

Unfortunately, these people have to have a minimum sentence set now. Thanks to the EU and human rights brigade. Their minimum tariffs should have been much higher IMO but at least if they are still considered a danger they can be kept away unlike with a specified maximum sentence where they have to be released after serving it.

I personally think that despite the EU interfering and no long allowing the Home Secretary to decide when lifers can be released, there is some secret never-never list for people like Rosemary West. Hopefully these lot have made their way straight to the top of it.

I dont think anyone is expressing pity for any off the adults involved in Peter's death.

Not beliving in the death sentence or sterilisation does not = lack of care for victims of crime.

Those things dont work and demean us as a society.

That woman will not go on to keep any babies she might have. Not in a million years. I know it happens in other cases of abuse but it wont with her.

Well, I think people who think up bizarre and macabre punishments outside of the rehabilitation and punishment meted out by the criminal justice system are foolish and only concerned with blood lust and satisfying vengeful feelings.

But we will just have to agree to disagree.

quite right chegirl

Chegirl, and nor should she.

Laurie, I am not concerned with blood lust nor vengeful feelings. However I would not feel pity for the family of a murderer if they were truley guilty and faced a death sentence.

so what exactly was the reason for saying she should be forcibly sterilised if not a cruel and unusual punishment?

forcibly sterilising someone is not what the criminal justice system is about in a civilised society.

I already stated she wouldn't be able to raise a child without scrutiny.

Laurie, do you not think sterilising her would be better- prevention rather than cure? a bit like a permenant condom. thats not blood thirst. that is logical make sure she can never have another child. She does not deserve any or rather no child deserves that as a mother.

We were talking about the sentence given to these people at work last night. One of my colleagues is from Pakistan and was describing an apparently wellknown incident in his country some years back of one man who abducted and killed a number of children (not sexually motivated btw). The man was lynched by a mob, buried in the ground to his chest and stoned to death.

Obviously in our society this would be seen as wrong. But think about it, if Baby P's stepfather had thought that he would be killed very slowly and painfully as a result of his actions, would he still have done it?

I would really be interested to know if the incidences of such crimes are lesser in countries where they have "shariah" type punishments - Iran/Saudi etc.

I for one have been shocked at the pathetically lenient sentences handed out to childkillers in this country recently. Don't forget that Baby P's murderers were not actually charged with murder because of some technicality or other.

As to the question of the death penalty not being fair to the families of the murderers... if Baby P's stepfather were my son, would I want him dead or alive - hard to say!! You have to remember that people are generally products of their upbringing; I cannot imagine that any of the families of these sorry, pathetic individuals have the same standards as you and I i.e. they are not mumsnetters!!

Anyway, this is my last and only BabyP post as it upsets me

I don't agree with the death penalty however have to agree that they should have the comfort that they do whilst in prison. I assume its to help with rehabilitation so would be interested to see the statistics on whether it works.

sorry that should have read shouldn't have the comfort whilst in prison...

I really should double check what I've written

I don't know what happens here in the UK, but back home in the US, once anyone in prison knew who they were and what they did? Their stay in prison would most likely lead to their deaths by the other inmates. Or, at the least, their stay would less than pleasant.

And deservedly so.

I think so Tee; paedophiles and child killers apparently come at the very bottom of the pile in prison. The other inmates are unlikely to be ultra-friendly, I suspect.

Tryharder - you asked whether more brutal punishments might lead to less violent crime. Well, it didn't work for the man in Pakistan you described, so I doubt it would have worked for Baby P's stepfather either.

As someone else pointed out earlier, the incidences of violent crimes are as high (if not higher) in countries where brutal physical punishments and the death penalty are used.

As for your comments on the families of the criminals....you seem to imagine they are some sort of emotionless miscreants who deserve the punishment of losing their loved-one. The fact that they have been unfortunate enough to produce a murderer does not necessarily mean they themselves are dysfunctional. There but for the grace of God an' all that...

I don't understand how people can say the death of Baby P upsets them and yet wish for more blood, suffering and death? Weird.

And top post from StewieGriffinsMom.

Apart from anything else, the death penalty is shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted. It doesn't stop future Baby P incidents at all.

But big changes need to be made. We claim to be a civilised society that doesn't have capital punishment, maintains human rights etc but we don't take proper care of our children - those who are at risk nor of our old.

I dont agree with the death penalty but i do believe the sentances handed down yesterday were far too lenient.

I think they should be made to 'work' doing very menial jobs for the forseeable.It leaves a sour taste in my mouth to think they will be given an easy time in prison & 'protected'. Baby P wasnt protected was he?

Being a parent is a privelige not a right,she has shown she is not a mother so if she does go on to have any more children they should be taken away from her,lets not forget she sat back & watched her son being tortured daily & her 2 yr old daughter was raped by her 'boyfriend'.She also hid that poor little boys injuries so she was aware of what she was doing.

I hope she wakes every morning full of remorse & goes to sleep every night with that poor little boys face in her mind.

'I don't understand how people can say the death of Baby P upsets them and yet wish for more blood, suffering and death? Weird.'

I agree-it seems very weird to me.
I think the main thing is to stop the cycle.
I am not saying it is an excuse, anyone should know right from wrong, but I expect that the mother's childhood was abusive. Some seem to be able to resolve to be completely different and some carry on the cycle. I would prefer the punishment to be rehabilitation rather than revenge. If they are rehabilitated they have to live with the realision of the enormity of what they did for the rest of their lives.

Good post from StewieGriffinsMom.

Also have to agree with PM73 that sentencing somehow needs to incorporate more of a 'work' element. I don't mean hard labour as in breaking rocks or digging holes or whatever - but doing menial work that needs to be done. Of course, education and rehabilitation play a role too (where appropriate). I'm thinking not specifically of the Baby Peter case here, but more generally. I think for many prisoners, being banged up probably isn't as much of a punishment as it ought to be. The 'retribution' element of punishment is a valid part.

Having said that, I would imagine the kind of existence these particular criminals will have in prison is going to be pretty horrific, and I suspect that if they ever are released and given new identities, it will be a life time of being monitored and looking over their shoulders...

An indeterminate sentence means they may well never be released. Don't think it's lenient at all although seems to confuse many members of the public which is possibly justification for changing the name or nature of it.

Baby Peter's mother is highly likely to have been a victim of state sanctioned child abuse herself - she and other members of her family were caught up in the Islington childrens' homes abuse scandal, where paedophiles were allowed to prey on children in care and the authorities refused to step in again and again - including Lord Laming when he was inspector of Social Services.

That doesn't in any way excuse what she did, but it means the state itself is implicated in what happened to her and her family and ultimately that led to what happened to Baby Peter.

If Margaret Hodge, Lord Laming and a whole bunch of people who were promoted to the very top ranks of social services had done their jobs, or admitted their failures, the cycle of abuse may have been broken. Sadly it seems the most terrible treatment of children may have seemed almost normal to Baby Peter's mother. That is no excuse, of course, but many other powerful people bear some responsibility for the tragic history of this family going back decades.

I am all for hanging animals like this.