what is everyone elses opinions?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

Ok was just talking to my friend and we were discussing baby P and the sentences given to the scum who killed him. My friend said they were fair sentences and I said they were not and that no sentenced served in a prison where they get 3 square meals a day, recreation time where they have games consoles, pool tables, etc, a bed, and everything else is a fair sentence and that scum like that deserve no less than a death sentence.
Now she doesn't agree she thinks that it is unfair to the families of the murderer to suffer...I on the other hand am not of the same mind set....what do you ladies think?

I believe the jail-terms given are pathetic,but don't believe in the death penalty.

I get some comfort from knowing what kind of 'welcome' they will get in jail though.

Kimi - can I ask why? What purpose would it serve to hang these criminals? What would be the point? Would you want to watch an execution?

Great post edam. I don't feel sorry for Baby P's mother at this moment but I do have sympathy for any child who suffers abuse; no child should have to endure it and us lucky ones can only imagine the deep psychological trauma caused by it.

"I am all for hanging animals like this."

Why? Because you are angry about what happened to that baby? Everyone is.

But more violence and hanging simply will not stop more babies in future from being abused and hurt. That's what everyone wants.

What will stop it from happening, Kimi?

It's not just about preventing future occurrences to other children though is it? It's about punishment.

They committed a heinous crime, one that most people couldn't even contemplate.

What is the point of keeping them alive in prison? Why should they have the right to be rehabilitated?

The fear of capital punishment may not prevent those hell-bent on committing such atrocities. But it seems that the fear of languishing in prison, possibly for ever but, in most cases, for a few years, does not seem to prevent it either, does it?

Agree with most others.

Death penalty - no way. Even one miscarriage of justice is enough reason not to have it. Civilised societys do not carry out state sponsored murder. Simple as.

However if people pose a danger to society they should be kept under lock and key forever (or until there is absolutely no question that they will ever ever do anything ever again).

It disturbs me that violent people are released after a set time rather than being held until they are safe (if ever).

But capital punishment is hypocritical, isn't it PRSB?

How can we justify punishing someone who has killed another human, by killing them? How can it be ok to murder someone in some circumstances but not others? What gives us the right to make such judgements?

And who would you propose is going to be the executioner? Are you volunteering for the job? Someone's got to do it!

Sorry, rather more questions than answers there!

It's all rather academic anyway since we don't have the death penalty in this country (thanks goodness; there's one reason to be proud of being British ) and never will again, unless some strange crackpot gets into power. Hmmmm...

I don't view capital punisment as hypocritical, no.

In this instance the criminals concerned sustained a horrific and systematic campaign of terrifying and ultimately fatal abuse against an innocent human being. That, to my mind, sets them outside the normal parameters within which people should be judged. Basically, if you like, I think they gave up their right to be treated as a human being.

As such, if a human being chooses to behave like an animal, they should be treated accordingly. Animals, in this society, who maim or kill human beings are put down- the idea being that they are unable to change their behaviour.

A death sentence would be passed only after due and deliberate consideration of the crimes committed and many people would be involved in reaching that decision.

Don't get me wrong- I would not advocate the willy-nilly application of the death sentence. But some crimes are so appalling that I believe that the ultimate punishment should be used.

Is it just me or does this not really make sense?

"One of my colleagues is from Pakistan and was describing an apparently wellknown incident in his country some years back of one man who abducted and killed a number of children (not sexually motivated btw). The man was lynched by a mob, buried in the ground to his chest and stoned to death.

....But think about it, if Baby P's stepfather had thought that he would be killed very slowly and painfully as a result of his actions, would he still have done it?"

Well I am thinking about it and the threat of this punishment didn't stop the person in Pakistan so why should it have had any more success in stopping Baby P's killers.

Good post StewieGriffinsmum. Not much else to add

My work quite often takes me into prison (and no I'm not a rubbish burglar) and I can assure anyone who thinks it's some kind of holiday camp that it isn't - it's a dark, gloomy, claustrophobic, harsh place where you get treated like shit. I always feel huge relief when I leave because I can.

We live in a civilized society and so we must behave in a civilized manner. Prison is not an ideal solution but it's the one we have.

Agree with PRSB - these 'people' got their rocks off on tormenting poor Baby P. To give them the death sentence would not be the same thing, just a clinical procedure to extinguish their lives IMO

That being said I would only advocate the death sentence in cases where the crims are proved beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty (ie Baby P's case)

I think the death sentence is too lenient- people should be left to contemplate their wrong doings and deal with the guilt.

But, PRSB and Southmum....what gives us the right to decide to put a person to death? and how do we draw a line? i.e. how do we decide which crimes are worthy of the death penalty and which aren't? Victims of any violent crimes (or their families) might feel the death penalty is justified. How could we, as a society, make that call? I just don't see how it would work in practice.

PRSB You make the point that these people behaved like animals. Yes, what they did was cruel and barbaric in the extreme, I don't think anyone could disagree with that.

What about the distinct possibility that these two adults were themselves subjected to cruel abuse as children? Does that not go some way to explaining their apparent complete lack of empathy? If poor Baby P had survived the abuse, there's a high chance he may have gone on to be an adult who abused children (his own or other people's).

The idea of putting people to death or sterilising them smacks horribly of trying to eliminate some flawed underclass that no-one wants to have around, rather than actually confronting the problems of cyclical abuse and trying to tackle them properly.

Olifin - the right to put a person to death would come from considering what crime they committed. IMO any crime purposefully committed to inflict severe harm resulting in death, or intending to kill outright, should result in the death penalty.

As for the 'people' being victims themselves - I don't see this as a valid argument at all. If they were mentally instable and thought they were an onion or something then possibly there is a small excuse (for want of a better word). But they have awareness that what they were doing is wrong, and if they were abused themselves as kids then all the more reason for them not to inflict their experiences on others.

I know it is not a PC fluffy view but I am pro hanging, Our prisons are full, I take great offense at having to pay taxes to house and feed scum like this, It is not a knee jerk reaction out of anger, it is something I have always believed, Child killers, rapist, pedophiles, and the like should be put to death, and what gives me the right to think this way is that I have never done any of the above, you could also say what gives a group of 12 people the right to put someone in jail.

You CAN NOT rehabilitate someone who thinks children are sex toys, and someone like this "woman" had no respect for a human life, she was a mother the very person who should have laid down her own life to protect her child, it is a basic instinct, but she chose to abuse that child and to let others do the same.

If she were a dog who savaged a child would you not say she should be put down?

I am not saying everyone should agree with me, I am expressing my view, and that is that hanging is what scum like this deserve, as for if I would watch, I would apply for the job and sleep well at night.

kimi i find it disgusting what happened to baby p but i am also disturbed that you admit you would actually be the person to carry out murders.

Please sign the Sun's online petition these things can work if enough people sign them.
In my opinion the sentences passed down on these truly evil people are far far too lenient- they were part of the systematic abuse, torture and murder of a innocent baby they deserve to rot in jail!!!!

Why does the Justice system put more value on money than human life for example a lot of people who commit fraud receive higher sentences than those who commit murder wheres the justice in that!

I totally agree with kimi, my cousin was raped at 10yrs old by a pedophile that had served time in prison 3 times for rapeing other young girls.

If this man wasnt alowed out of prison OR had been put to death my cousin wouldnt of been raped by him. she comited suicide at 14yrs old (after 4yrs of mental problems) due to this man being released.

This man has gone on to attack other young girls.

It would just be a job.

Someone would have to do it.

It used to be a career, before they did away with hanging.

I am not a crazed psychopath by the way, I just think that today crime goes unpunished the victims of crime get trampled over by the PC brigade who want to hug the perpetrator and find a reason they should not be punished oh daddy was a drunk, mummy was a depressive, you did not get a barbie for your 10th birthday oh poor you no wonder you are a child killer/ rapist/ pedophile and so on.

A close family member was raped in a vicious attack by someone who had form for doing it before and had done time for it, now if this vermin had been strung up the first time he did it there would not have been any others, he was caught attempting to rape someone else, and in a few years he will be free to do it again (he got 11 years).
Some "people" are just too evil to live, I am sorry but that is how I feel, and God forbid if someone did anything to my kids would I want them hung? Um no I would want them put in a room with me because hanging would be too quick.

There is no deterrent to crime these days I could get in my car run someone I hated over and be out in 3 years, you get more time for stealing money then for taking a life, and until it is made clear that there is going to be a fitting punishment to fit the crime it will only get worse.

I do not want to pay my taxes so the likes of Ian Huntly can have a private cell, I would happily pay them to cover the wages of a hangman though.

Guess the next question is what if it were a member of my family being hung, if they deliberately took a life, raped someone, or thought children were there to be abused then I would not have a problem with it

Kittycats x posts. so sorry about your cousin

Oh kittycats, that is so tragic. Agree sentencing for violent and sexual crimes is far too lax - people should only be released when they have served sufficient time as a punishment AND can prove to the best of human ability that they are no longer a threat.

My impression is that sentencing is harsher for property crimes than for sexual violence. Compare armed robbery to rape.

However, in this case I do think the sentences were right - not the minimum terms but the fact they are indeterminate so these excuses for human beings will only be let out when they don't pose any danger. Possibly never.

Olifan thank you. The family history was mentioned in the Evening Standard where one of the investigative journalists who worked on their campaign about Islington childrens' homes explained how she had given a whole dossier of evidence to Laming, which he ignored.

Makes the Baby Peter case even more terrible, if that were possible. If people in positions of authority had done the job they were paid to that family might have been very different and poor Peter might not have suffered.

So ALL you tax payers are happy to fund the comfortable lives of the criminals are you? In prison whhere they get 3 square meals a day, a bed, recreation time, PAID work, a resettlememt grant when they are released and in the case of these 3 animals a new identity, new home already furnished?

I personally would rather a one off cost of a lethal injection and get rid of the scum forever.

I'm with Kimi to a certain extent, but there are far too may wrongful convictions for my liking for the death penalty to be brought in.

Hard labour, yes. Public stocks, yes. Death penalty - I'm not quite sure.

TLE - don't you have any belief in the concept of rehabilitation then at all?

They should both, regardless of how long they are locked up for, be sterilised and not in a reversible way.

They should not be allowed, ever, to have another child whether they are rehabilitated, locked up, out in the world, given new identities, whatever, no more babies for them or people like them; child killers.

Agree with Pennies.

The death penalty was abolished for a reason, people are wrongly convicted all the time.

I am happy for my taxes to pay to keep scum off the streets forever, I would not pay the hangman's wages though.