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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

what is everyone elses opinions?

144 replies

TheLadyEvenstar · 22/05/2009 23:45

Ok was just talking to my friend and we were discussing baby P and the sentences given to the scum who killed him. My friend said they were fair sentences and I said they were not and that no sentenced served in a prison where they get 3 square meals a day, recreation time where they have games consoles, pool tables, etc, a bed, and everything else is a fair sentence and that scum like that deserve no less than a death sentence.
Now she doesn't agree she thinks that it is unfair to the families of the murderer to suffer...I on the other hand am not of the same mind set....what do you ladies think?

OP posts:
edam · 23/05/2009 15:00

of course as a taxpayer I'm prepared to fund prisons, what a daft question! And that means some pretty horrible people will be fed, watered and housed at public expense.

What's your alternative? Australia's been independent for a long time, doubt they'd be happy to start taking our crims again.

Kimi · 23/05/2009 15:06

With todays technology I think unsound convictions are less likely.

Original poster
TheLadyEvenstar · 23/05/2009 15:08

Pennies, In all honesty a big fat NO.

OP posts:
Original poster
TheLadyEvenstar · 23/05/2009 15:21

I honestly do not believe you can rehabilitate rapists, child molestors, or many serious criminals.

Stripey, I said the same last night and was accused of being cruel for thinking they should be sterilised.

OP posts:
Lulumama · 23/05/2009 15:28

but when we did have the death penalty, we were not a crime free country.. there were still plenty of hideous acts perpertrated.

drlove8 · 23/05/2009 15:38

im with you on this TheLdayEvenstar.... and i dont think it cruel for them to be sterilised either. its cruel for decent people who'd be good loving parents, who cant have kids, so why let a monster have the priveledge?

Original poster
TheLadyEvenstar · 23/05/2009 15:45

LuLu, But were there as many? I don't mean petty crimes I mean serious ones?

.

I feel Haringey Council have an awful lot to answer for

Maybe my views are clouded

Firstly because My Nan was "Cared" for by haringey council/ss....and they did a piss poor job of it. She was 82 yrs old and suffering from the loss of my grandad, they had been married 60 yrs, as well as her having senile dementia. There way of dealing with her was to put her in a day care centre while my uncle worked...Great yes? NO they left her sitting by an open door away from others because she cried for my grandad....odd that eh?

Now on the side of the criminals maybe just maybe i would feel differently had I myself not been the victim of someone who had previously committed a serious crime and has since escaped from a secure hospital and gone on to re commit....thankfully he has been captured and is awaiting sentencing for the 4th time in his life from 1975 until now.....

My views are if this man had been given the death penalty in the first instance where he killed someone in 1975 then he would not have committed the other crimes including the one against myself. And Tax payers would not still be paying for him to "live".

OP posts:
Original poster
TheLadyEvenstar · 23/05/2009 15:48

DrLove, If they are not going to bring in the death penalty then thats the minimum that could be done to protect innocent children from these monsters.

OP posts:
drlove8 · 23/05/2009 15:56

True , Evenstar.... why not bring back the death sentence? we have dna evidence now, and any cases that are 100% sure they've got the right crim , then why let them live.... i hate child molesters and killers with a vengence tbh.... but then again i would have had a different opinion had i never came into contact with any myself.

Original poster
TheLadyEvenstar · 23/05/2009 16:07

drlove, there is no deterrant for criminals, worst case scenario for them??? Oh yes a comfortable life with all their needs catered for.....yes I can see how this would deter them from recommiting......

If there is not to be death sentencing then there needs to be stronger sentencing.

OP posts:
Lulumama · 23/05/2009 16:07

of course there were murders, rapes and child abuse when we had the death penalty.

and anyone who thinks that our justice system is 100 % reliable because of DNA evidence is kidding themselves

i don;t think that state sanctioned killing is right or has a place in a civilised society

i don't think there is any easy or right answer as to what to do with people such as baby P's killers. i think paedophiles and child killers get a very rough time in prison though.

drlove8 · 23/05/2009 16:10

I dont get the " abuse = abuse" either. It is an excuse.... if youve been abused yourself it makes you understand how disgusting to harm a little child, how on earth do these people justify their actions by this?.... not all abuse victims abuse their own/ others children.... although i do believe that something may be passed down though genetics that might explain it.Another reason to remove the scum from the gene pool.

Thunderduck · 23/05/2009 16:11

I agree with Lulu.

I'm strongly against the death penalty and bringing it back would be a huge step backwards for this so called civilised country.

Albert Pierrepoint, Britain's most prolific executioner later became against the death penalty and he said that he didn't believe that any of the executions he carried out had saved a single life or acted as a deterrent.

Society must be better than it's criminals. Murder is an act carried out by criminals, it should not be carried out by any country that wishes to call its'self civilised and humane.

Original poster
TheLadyEvenstar · 23/05/2009 16:15

LuLu, not rough enough!

OP posts:
drlove8 · 23/05/2009 16:20

thunder , you have an execellent argument there...Pierrepoint did go against the Death Penalty .... but i dont agree that it didnt save a single life, that was Pierrepoints opinion, as a man who must have had some form of guilt as an executioner.Todays technology would rule out the need for a "hangman". Still , with respect Thunder i will agree to disagree with you on this.

Lulumama · 23/05/2009 16:23

someone has to sentence the person to death, someone will have to set in motion the events to lead to a button being pushed etc to cause the death of another...

saying 'it's computers/technology' doing it, removes the human intervention and responsibility for carrying out the death sentence.

our justice system and prisons are far from perfect, but more time, attention and money needs to be expended on stopping the cycles of abuse and violence that are just not stopping

Thunderduck · 23/05/2009 16:23

It doesn't work that way drLove. If you've never been shown love or compassion how are you to learn it and display it to others?
It may not even seem wrong to you if you've been abused. It's just the norm.

We can't apply the emotions and thinking of a normal person who has had a healthy upbringing, to someone who has been abused, perhaps physically, sexually and emotionally throughout their lives, and who has no idea how to form and have healthy relationships with others.

Of course not all children who have been abused will go on to abuse others, but a great many do, and it does no good to pretend that it doesn't affect the behaviour of many.
Case studies of many murderers and rapists have shown that the majority have been abused in some form., most often by their parents.

We can't ignore that.

Thunderduck · 23/05/2009 16:32

Again I agree with Lulu.

Someone still has to start this in emotion, and that person is as responsible for the death of the convicted as they would be had they slipped a noose around their neck.

If you, general you, are going to take the life of another, don't try to pretend you aren't killing just because you can get technology to replace much of the process that was carried out manually previously.

You are still taking a life, and if you are willing to do that, then you must accept the full reality of the situation imho. Don't try to pretend that you have no responsibility.

If taking part in an execution, and witnessing it makes you feel uncomfortable if you're required to do more than hit a key or press a button, good, perhaps it's making you uncomfortable for a reason. Perhaps what you're doing is wrong.

Lulumama · 23/05/2009 16:34

it;s like saying bullets kill people, not the person pulling the trigger..

i don't know what the answer is, but more death is not it.

Thunderduck · 23/05/2009 16:36

Can I marry you Lulu?

drlove8 · 23/05/2009 16:39

Thunder i was speaking as a person who has been abused as a child myself,by a parent ,(physically& emotionally not sexually)so i do know a wee bit about how they cant function "normally", but you learn, you draw the line and decide thats not going to crush the rest of your life.You dont use it as an excuse to harm others. , again i bring up perhaps it is something genetic thats passed on?....the only way to stop that is to stop abusers breeding.Counceling doesnt work, prison doesnt work, what do you suggest?

Lulumama · 23/05/2009 16:41

drlove, i am sorry for what happened to you as a child. it is horrific , you broke the cycle, you did it. not everyone can . your brain is hardwired by the age of 3 IIRC, it can be so ahrd to udno what is done

i think some people have issues that make them almost immune to counselling/punishment etc..

people who are socio or psychopaths .. but i don;t think hanging them will ultimately change anything for the better.

drlove8 · 23/05/2009 16:43

Right then , where can i sign up ? as i happily push the button to execute poedophiles and child killers! Im not saying i wont feel guilty, but id sleep better knowing one less was breathing the same air then my beloved kids.

Thunderduck · 23/05/2009 16:43

I'm so sorry that someone did that to you drLove.

I'm glad you've broken the cycle and hopefully have a happy life now, but not everyone has that opportunity.

They are never able to form normal relationships, perhaps they never have the chance. They go from being abused to a life of crime, they find themselves unable to form healthy relationships with others, they may get into another abusive relationship, they end up in prison for a while.

It isn't an excuse of course but it is a reason and I think it does no good to pretend that it isn't a factor in many rape, murder and abuse cases.

Olifin · 23/05/2009 16:48

Thunderduck, you said just what I wanted to say re. lack of love and compassion (only in a more eloquent way!) I'm pretty sure that the general consensus among the psychiatric community is that being the victim of abuse as a child can, and often does, lead to a complete lack of empathy in an individual. This means that they may be unable to imagine or predict the consequences of their actions. They may be fairly emotionless, which makes it even harder for them to understand the impact of their actions on others. Not saying they have an excuse for committing such crimes, just that, very often, there are reasons behind it and where there are reasons, there is a possibility of rehabilitation, IMO.

Kimi The cost of keeping people in prison is not an argument- it is apparently more expensive to execute someone! There's some evidence somewhere, will see if I can find it....

I also have to say that I'm totally freaked out by your relish at the thought of being an executioner! You'd apply for the job and sleep well at night? So, would you say you've got violent tendencies?

Finally, I would just like to ask those who support capital punishment if they would still be quite so vehemently in favour if a member of their family or a loved-one were convicted of a serious and violent offence?