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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that good manners in children are overrated?

273 replies

mrsruffallo · 19/05/2009 11:01

Manners seem so important to some parents. Personally, I don't believe in forcing them to say sorry, please, thank you, hello, goodbye etc.
If it is a genuine emotion they say it naturally anyway
AIBU?

OP posts:
thirdname · 20/05/2009 21:53

OK, as I don't get really it. What if bad manners here is considered normal in other countries. Do you consider these other cultures rude?
It's just that I think eg that saying "you are welcome" weird. If a child thanks me I will say it but I feel I'm a hypocrite. I'm just saying it as a phrase,because maybe the parents are listening, not that I want to be extra kind or something like it. . But I don't think I'm so more good mannered here then when I was in "my country".

thirdname · 20/05/2009 21:57

My children are not going to be doing very well. If they want a drink we don't go through the whole phrases of please, thank you, you are welcome. I won't accept "I want milk" but I will accept "Could I have some milk (please)

Slickbird · 20/05/2009 21:57

As soon as mine are able to speak (within reason obviously) I get them to start saying "Please" and "Thank you". Why not? They are capable of them as new words, but also, it's important for them to learn social graces from an early age.

I can't stand bad manners and as it is not a difficult thing to say, I see no reason why children can't. It's something that should stay with them for life. I've had a lot of people over the last few years comment on how my eldest has very good manners and not only does it make them happy, it makes me proud of her and will it will serve her well.

It's the fact these things fall to the wayside you've got arseholes running round streets causing mayhem.

Oh, really, don't get me started.

Slickbird · 20/05/2009 22:03

Thirdname That's an interesting observation, but no I don't necessarily think that a cultural difference makes that country rude. For example, I have a German friend who had this very dilemma - she lives in Scotland, is married to a Scot and has two children here. As she was teaching the eldest to talk (he was learning German and English at home) she wondered if she should be teaching him to say please and thank you in German, as while they obvioulsy have the words for it, they don't typically use them. But she knows here we do, so she wasn't sure how to handle it. BUT secretly, I did find him a little rude (and a bit of a brat, but that's another story and more to do with the father..)so I would have been happier to see him using his P&Q's.

I guess it's just whatever you're used to.

applepudding · 20/05/2009 22:28

slickbird - don't know if that is always true about Germany as when I've been there have been lots of 'danke's and 'dankeshone's - perhaps they were just humouring me!

thirdname - I agree that 'you're welcome' sounds a bit OTT for day to day use, I think it sounds a bit American. I'd probably say 'no problem'.

codinbatter · 20/05/2009 22:40

What a load of hogwash!!!! Here's a question to all those posters who say that they want their kids to be polite, value manners etc etc:

Why is it that, when people object to the swearing on MN, they are told that they are mimsy and pathetic and usually given a torrent of (not big and not clever) abuse. Shouldn't all you oh-so-polite people be saying, "I'm very sorry to cause offense. I'll try to be more considerate of others' feelings in future." Since when did MNers get polite? Or is it a case of do as I say, not as I do?

HopeForTheBestExpectTheWorst · 20/05/2009 23:04

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn on request of the poster.

wrinklytum · 20/05/2009 23:15

I think manners are important and try to get the dcs to say please and thank you.DD is learning to sign.She has significant delay in understanding but has recently learnt to sign "please" if she would like something,so I guess this is something most NT children should be able to manage!Maybe I am an evil parent expecting this,but whilst the dcs are in my care I think it is important they are socialised with good manners.

SOLOisMeredithGrey · 20/05/2009 23:23

In my job, I deal with murderer's, bank robbers, rapists(you get the picture)etc and I always, ALWAYS use good manners with them. Even they mention my 'nice manners' and my answer is always the same. 'Manners cost nothing and I try to treat people the way I want to be treated'. Simple really. I thank you!

thirtypence · 21/05/2009 00:58

I am currently teaching my year 5 classes that it's also how you say something that matters. Saying "good afternoon Mr mumble mumble voice dropping an octave and getting flat looking down not really looking that interested." is actually no more polite than not bothering at all.

Ds's school has a massive focus on manners, and it is hard work to reinforce them every day - but it is so worth it.

thumbwitch · 21/05/2009 01:36

re. Germany - when I was there on visits, there were also lots of danke, danke schon, bitte sehr (rough equivalent of you're welcome) etc. Again, don't know if it's because I am English and they were humouring me but it seems a bit unlikely!

SOLOisMeredithGrey · 21/05/2009 01:50

It's the same in Austria thumb. They're very polite.

(are you stalking me?! )

thumbwitch · 21/05/2009 01:53

I believe that shoe is on the other foot, my dear Solo - since you posted after me! This thread has been in my Threads I'm On for some time, I'll have you know!

messymissy · 21/05/2009 06:22

thirtypence - i agree with you that its also HOW these things are said, that its so much better to have a little sincerity in the voice when saying anything like please, thankyou excuse me, good morning and especially Sorry.

I absolutely cannot abide sarcasim, you hear it so often in the reluctant sorry and good morning etc. I was brought up never to be sarcastic - my parents would say its the lowest form of wit (and very very rude - the refuge of the bad mannered) and never swear (they would say that if you have to resort to swearing you have already lost the argument)

Thumb - got lots of German friends and they are always very polite and good mannered.

nooka · 21/05/2009 06:37

I think that manners are important, but words are not everything. A sullen please is worth very little in my, nor is a sarky sorry. It is also worth bearing in mind that many manners are very culture specific (and I don't just mean UK vs other countries, there are lots of differences within the UK as well). To me for example reading one of the posts here about a mum correcting her father for not saying "you are welcome" to her son to me felt very rude, because I was brought up to think being polite to your elders was really really important, but "you are welcome" was not a phrase used at all in our household (please followed by thank you only, "you are welcome" thought to be terribly American). dh was brought up to think that saying "pardon" was the right thing, I was brought up to say "what", both families thought they were in the right, just different social backgrounds. So it just goes to show that you could be seen as being rude when you thought you were being polite. Dangerous waters.

Whereas if you teach your child to be friendly and considerate I think that is fairly universally liked by all. A lovely genuine smile is more important to me than any amounts of pleases and thank yous, a sorry hug better than a "sorry" etc

Having said that being appreciative really is worth quite a lot. We had a friend of dd's to lunch (slightly by accident), and he really enjoyed dh's Mac & Cheese, had two big helpings and said several times how delicious it was. I can't remember pleases or thank yous (I'm sure there were some) but he is certainly welcome to visit again. It does help if you like your food and aren't too choosy (ds is my mother's golden boy in this regard as he soon figured out how to charm her).

Sheeta · 21/05/2009 08:17

Obviously YABU.

DS already says thank you (well, he signs it) and he's only 18 months. I'm sure this will change as he gets older, and I'll have to reinforce it again but he's learnt it by example.

piscesmoon · 21/05/2009 09:05

'In my job, I deal with murderer's, bank robbers, rapists(you get the picture)etc and I always, ALWAYS use good manners with them. Even they mention my 'nice manners' and my answer is always the same. 'Manners cost nothing and I try to treat people the way I want to be treated'. '

My feelings exactly. I would guess that some of them have turned out badly is because no one has ever been polite to them since they were born.

'Since when did MNers get polite? Or is it a case of do as I say, not as I do? '

I disagree with people quite a lot on here, but I hope that I am always polite.
I don't ask my DCs to do anything that I don't do.

stealthsquiggle · 21/05/2009 09:53

Having committed the cardinal sin of not reading the whole thread, I am going to stick my neck out further and say I think I see what MrsR is getting at.

My DC certainly say please, thank you, excuse me, etc at home. However, if a stranger in a shop gives DD (2.5) something (with my consent, of course) and she goes all shy and hides behind me, I am not going to embarass her and the person concerned by making a big deal of forcing her to say Thank you - I ask once and if she won't then I say it on her behalf. I know from bitter experience that we would otherwise be there indefinitely (40 mins to say sorry to DS is her record so far )

thumbwitch · 21/05/2009 10:00

Just to add into the cultural diversity thing - when in Italy, if one says Grazie, it is customary for the other person to say Prego (again, similar to "you're welcome") - we were at a hotel there with one of the most sullen waitresses ever and you could see her gritting her teeth every time we said Grazie cos she would have to say Prego - but she still did it! I don't think she liked English people very much.

simplesusan · 21/05/2009 10:33

I think manners are important, but do agree about how it is important to mean what you say too.
Some kids, who always seem to be in trouble, don't have a problem saying sorry, but they clearly don't mean it as they keep repeating the bad behaviour!
Perhaps this is another thread.
I personally find rude people more unlikeable than polite people but again it does depend on how you are brought up etc etc.

smallone · 21/05/2009 10:39

DD has been saying please and thankyou since 6mo, started off as makaton, then spoken. Because this is something that she has experienced since such a young age she says it now automatically or with a minimum of prompting. Therefore no need to grill her for the correct word.

Strangers were more than happy with my explanation that her signing was her way of saying thankyou and it was accepted just as graciously as the spoken word.

smallone · 21/05/2009 10:47

My mother always taught me that if you are nice to people it is much more difficult for them to be rude back. I am always to polite to people doing me a service and I have seen that I get better treatment than those who are rude.

muppetgirl · 21/05/2009 10:58

Haven?t read the whole thread as time limited so don?t shoot me!

I feel there is more than just to saying the words, it?s the meaning behind them that is significant also. I had a wonderful lesson with a group of year 6's when they asked why certain words were swear words and why people get so offended by them when they're just words.

I said I could agree with what they were saying but they need to remember the context of when those words were being said and the meaning the speaker had intended. Rape is a word I personally hate, it's just 4 letters but the meaning behind the words is awful.

Words are very powerful and carry different strengths of power in different situations, think of bullying as an excellent example, it's only words that can be said but how those words reduce a person to a gibbering wreck is a very amazing power to have over someone. (My brother was a good example of being on the receiving end and it was terrible for him and years before he came to terms with it)

I view manners in the same way. I agree I don?t make my embarrassed 5 year old say things he doesn't want to but I do insist on please and thank you's in most situations. I insist on sorry being said as it is the first action in acknowledging you?ve done something wrong and that you must try to make amends. Yes, he doesn?t always say it with good grace but I do feel he will learn from experience of others saying sorry in the same manner and think of how this attitude makes him feel. So many people these days -adults and children- don?t feel the need to acknowledge when they have done something wrong, my dad is certainly one of those and I see how his behaviour affects other people in the way they are with him. He rubs people up the wrong way by never apologising when he's obviously wrong. I suppose it's all about learning to get along with people really.

We all have common ground with please, thank you and sorry. We all know what we mean by saying it and I think that's as important also. I could say 'I appreciate that' instead of thank you but by saying thank you I am being specific in the socially acceptable way that leaves no ambiguity as to my meaning.

I don?t see any harm in these words and I don?t see any harm in children questioning why they have to say these words and are really pleased when they do as at least they can understand why they are being asked to parrot them out. I am more interested in my children questioning why they do certain things and so learn then how to fit in in the society they live in. Whether or not you agree with society?s current rules, they are here and cause strong reactions in people. At least if the children know why they are saying these words then that gives them a greater understanding of how to get along with people and that, surely, can only be a good thing.

oinkywoinky · 21/05/2009 11:05

All those who are getting their knickers in a twist about manners, please spare a thought for those children who have difficulty understanding what 'manners' are, let alone other social skills. My son is autistic and teaching him 'manners' is difficult, bordering on impossible. It makes me sad that you lot are exactly the type who would tut and raise their eybrows at us in public, if he did not conform to your exacting social standards.

MrsMattie · 21/05/2009 11:12

Ach. Not overly fussed, really. I remind my 4 yr old to say 'please' and 'thanks' and to greet /say goodbye to guests and friends etc, but I'm not overly bothered if other people's kids aren't a picture of politeness, so it can't bother me that much. My expectations of young children are fairly low, really. I find them funny and lovely even in their 'raw' state .