to be bl**dy furious that my DD has measles because other parents won't vaccinate?

[elportodelgato]

poor DD is only 11 mo and has horrid measles all over her, full of cold, streaming eyes, diarrhea, very unhappy and sleepy and limp. I am so so for her, but more I am absolutely bloody with idiot parents who won't have the MMR!

The doctor actually told me this morning that the reason it is so prevalent in our area is because of stupid people refusing to vaccinate their children and compromising the immunity of the whole group. So now my LO, who is only 2 months off having the vaccination herself, is really really sick because of other people's stupidity. It's making my blood boil! Do people not realise how dangerous it can be in little babies? And does anyone still seriously believe the so called "research" which claimed a link between MMR and autism? It has been so completely discredited in recent years you would think people would have got over it by now and started vaccinating again

Arrgh!!

My nephew didn't have MMR(second booster) and is now seriously ill with measles.

Yes, one problem with vaccinating against these illnesses is that you are in effect postponing them closer to adulthood. Having them as children is generally not that big a deal but they are much more dangerous for adults.

FAQ- speaking for our family, my son had his MMR in 1994, and developed symptoms such that we decided not to have his sisters vaccinated in 1996 and 1998 respectively. Do you think that the drop in take-up might have had something to do with the very real symptoms experienced by families in children vaccinated around that time; as I think turnip pointed out further down, our experience with vaccination mirrors that of many families- ie very compliant take-up for first child, or until children start to display adverse reactions, then strong soul-searching followed by decision about which vaccinations to accept.

In our case, this means that only my son has had any MMR - the original 13 month one (followed by 8 months of ill-health). His sisters have not had it at all. All three are up to date with DTP, although my youngest only received her shots at 20, 24 and 28 months. I refused the Hib offered her at the time on the grounds that we were already past the danger age by then.

Of course I worry about the effects on them of developing mumps -in my son's case, or rubella in pregnancy in my daughters' case, and perpetually worry about measles. As they are getting older I am considering having antibody assays done to establish whether they have any immunity to these diseases at all with a view to vaccinating against individual illnesses. These are all illnesses that ought to be caught in childhood.

Understand where you are coming from Cote but again re: rubella what if your daughter is sero-negative, has the rubella vaccine and remains sero-negative. Would you advise her not to have children? Rubella vaccination in this case is probably done more for the benefit of others rather than the individual. Single vaccines before school age/pre-school/nursery to protect all those potential pregnant mums around children?

Oh the choices to make as a parent......at least this thread shows everyone chooses what they think is right/ best option. Surely no one thinks that people intentionally picks the wrong one?

linden - re "what if your daughter is sero-negative, has the rubella vaccine and remains sero-negative"

Then she gets the booster a year later, I assume. Isn't that what they are for?

Test for rubella age 10. If non-immune, give vaccine. Test again age 11. If non-immune, give vaccine. Surely by the time she will remotely be interested in having children one of the vaccines will have worked? (If not, pro-MMR camp should seriously reconsider their positions)

"Rubella vaccination in this case is probably done more for the benefit of others rather than the individual. Single vaccines before school age/pre-school/nursery to protect all those potential pregnant mums around children?"

That is insane. NO PARENT in their right minds would knowingly inject their babies with a potentially harmful pathogen "for the benefit of others".

And those "others" (able-minded, adult women) should stop counting on little babies to provide them with herd immunity and take their health into their own hands - i.e. get tested for immunity & get vaccine before having children.

"Surely no one thinks that people intentionally picks the wrong one?"

Not intentionally, but because we are "stupid", apparently. Just read the OP.

Then why give the rubella injection to boys?

I've read most of this thread.

I'm astonished at the hypocrisy of the op, who is guilty of the very selfishness she is so keen to accuse others of. Selfishness, a lack of empathy and an almost wilful failure to understand.

Some people, like King Prawn, have popped in and out to offer a bit of abuse or a snide comment. I doubt they've read any of the links posted by those far more knowledgeable, but have lurked to see where they can point score against parents who have seen their children suffer.

Too many have made sweeping statements based on little more than prejudice.

God, the disgusting and dismissive stuff Pag, Beach, Riven and Peachy have responded to with reason, research and detail.

After this thread has died the op will go back to her now immune, well daughter, and you will carry on living out the arguments with the difficulties your experiences bring.

I know I sound pompous but I don't care, there are such a bunch of selfish, nasty, unpleasant, stupid and wilfully ignorant people on this thread I'm amazed you keep coming back to it with the patience and grace you've shown.

Although I suppose Pag must have a few dents in her head from the number of times it's hit the desk.

Also Cote: most excellent stuff.

Here,here stuffit

by the way novice: I'm one of the people you class as what was it.. stupid? idiotic? who haven't given the MMR without any family history that might militate against it

why? because when hundreds thousands of parents say "this happened to my child" I happen to think they are probably not lying, or mistaken, or believe every word of the Daily Mail one day -- so I read and read and I made my decision

and I'm fucking grateful to them for raising a fuss because quite frankly there but for the grace of God

If there is in fact a small sub-group of children who would be adversely affected by the MMR, that percentage is so small as to make no difference. I know that this will unleash a barrage from people who feel they have children in that percentage, and I am NOT minimising the pain and distress of those people, please don't misread me.

What I mean is, if you are thinking about vaccinating it's worth remembering that your DCs have a much much greater chance of being run over by a bus than of anything happening to them as a result of vaccination. The odds, even if you believe the most doom-laden dodgy research, are so so tiny. So it's baffling to me that people won't vaccinate but of course will let their children walk down the road. If you are weighing up the pros and cons of vaccination, it just isn't a risk, it's too tiny to be significant.

And, as stated above, that does NOT take away from the experience of people who are in that tiny group

Stuffit - eloquently put

I'm not point scoring, just pointing to some huge flaws in arguments for not vaccinating. You are right - it is very difficult as a lot of people on here have children affected by autism and believe there is a link. Does that mean we can't argue against them because they have suffered personal difficulties. They will always appear to have the moral high ground and understandably have very strong views - that doesn't mean they are right. All this sort of scaremongering will do is reduce the vaccination rates further and put more of our children at risk and as with an 8mnth old, yes I do feel I have a right to get angry - especially when people are misinformed.

Dear God Novicemama - do you actually know what you are saying? You keep contradicting yourself.

Linden - Exactly.

kingprawn - Which "huge flaws", pray tell?

I lost count of the number of times you've been offensive, Prawn.

We owe these parents -- they vaccinated and they and their children are paying a huge price. The very least we owe them is respect.

You should be down on your knees apologising.

Oh and Stuffit - I have read most of the links - I'm popping in and out because I have other things to do - oh and I have an MSc in public health (Do I need fax my certificate to the powers that be?).

Also, before everyone jumps in and calls me an evil bitch again, I did state a long way down this post somewhere that I DO have sympathy for the people who are suffering and struggling with this - I object to being called completely unsympathetic, I cannot imagine what people eg like Riven go through every day and am always in awe of the things some people on mn cope with, with good humour and reserves of energy and patience I can only imagine.

I also stated earlier that this is way too emotive a subject for some to discuss. If you feel this issue has affected you, of course it is impossible to be wholly objective and me giving stats about risk are going to be no comfort at all.

Really my posts have been aimed at debunking some of the truly bad science on this subject, and challenging the views of those people who don't vaccinate for some really blinkered, ill-informed and frankly anti-social reasons. I totally stand by that.

And once again, I am upset, my DD is ill, I feel strongly about it, my language has probably been inappropriate because of that (but I'm not the only one guilty I don't think...)

..kingprawn there is a world of difference between educated, informed, sensitive discussion and making pathetic jokes at the expence of others or calling people 'idiots' or 'stupid' as a means of so called debate

But with respect Novice it DOES take away from the people within that tiny minority.... which is me.

This thread has been pretty sweeping and pretty vile with stupid nutters idiots etc etc thrown around ( and lets not forget Londone and massivenorks who want children forcibly vaccinated) - the relctant addition of 'oh but a couple of you may have some reason to query it' does not really cut it.
Some genuine distancing from the rabib few would have been a little more convincing.

I have three sisters and four brothers. They visited a couple oftimes while DS2 was in his decline. My eldest sister saw DS2 three weeks after his jab and said 'oh my god - what on earth is wrong with him, what has happened. She would have had huge doubts about vaccinating her own after what she and my family witnessed.

I don't belive the people who say that they know people who admit to vaccinating or not based upon the editorial ofthe Daily Mail - I just don't know people so casual about their parenting. maybe other do.

For the average child the threat of a car accident is higher. But the threat to my child from the MMR is higher than that of the average child - averages are not relevent - and if ytou still think that average responses are what people are talking about then I am not sure you have actually read the thread.
Mind you - not reading the thread seems to be a bit of a speciality if the number of 'oh - wasn't the bloke who did the research struck off' comments are anything to go by.

I am genuinely pleased that your little one is feeling better - a good multi vitamin is always good post immune problems.

Not necessarily novice though

The Paed states the risk for DS4 of devceloping ASd is 20 - 80%

I presume he ahs the genetics for severalreasons but is currently developing in a typical, non-ASD fashion

If he develops it it will need to be triggered by something, that's how it is thought some genetic conditions work- you have the genes but they need a trigger.

Now, forgive me but if he had a 20 - 80% chance of being hit by a bus I'd step off the road, frankly.

Which if course is exactly what we have done.

Or to put it in more human terms, it's the baby on my profile, he's 13 months (!) next week.

The curly haired oldest one has AS / HFA; ds2 (more gingery one) has probable ADHD / dyspraxia according to SENCO; smaller curly one ASD, very limite dlangauge.

That is reality, real, not percentages.

People are creediting me with posting links wand whilst they are kind I haven't bar one; i've left that to far more recently learned people than myself.

ladylush - contradicting myself how?

I'm going -- I'm not adding much except heat.

Stuffit your post was excellent

novice you have been given plenty of empathy because of your situation