to ask our neighbourns to smoke further down their garden??

[tryingtobemarypoppins]

I can't open the kitchen windows and door or my little ones bedroom window and is soooooo warm today! Its driving me mad!

They smoke outside their house as they won't smoke inside and yet expose us to it in the process!

Poppity, I did get that yes, but reading out bits you googled is not quite the same as having a clue what you are talking about.

Even those who claim passive smoking is dangerous are talking about over a period of time not walking past a smoker in the open.

You and tryingtobemarypoppins are perfectly happy with the car fumes. Why? because you haven't been told by the media to be worried about that.

Your comment about cost is nonsense because (as FAQ says) smokers put much more than that back in via special taxes.

If all smokers gave up on the same day your NHS would be closing hospitals left and right through lack of money.

Those who smoke outside do so because of government pressure. Tell your MPs it wasn't such a good idea to force smokers outside where you can no longer avoid them.

It was great at first wasn't it "ohh we can force all those nasty smokers to go outside in the rain" but next thing you're all whining "ohh it's not fair that they smoke outside where I can't avoid them"

If your neighbours are doing something legal and you don't like it then move or shut up.

Onagar,

Living next door to smokers is not 'walking past them in the open'.And who are 'those who claim passive smoking is dangerous'? Please let us know where you are getting this information....

I am not totally happy with car fumes,where on earth have I said that? You are making some large assumptions there.

If you had read the link (which I did google by the way, not aware this wasn't allowed when searching for information on something) you would see it was not a media report, but a white paper. I don't read a newspaper, and I am not foolish enough to believe what I hear through the media.

I didn't say I had a clue what I was talking about, just that I would rather believe a white paper based on study by experts, or a chest consultant than you, unless you are an expert incognito with information we are unaware of.

Regarding the taxes on cigarettes. Maybe that's right, I don't know the figures, do taxes earned by smoking exceed the amount smokers cost us then? Can you point us to that info? Or (possibly) this is another sweeping statement by you with nothing to back it up?

Surely government pressure has been to give up, not simply smoke outside? No-one has said they have a problem with smokers having to smoke outside, I still love that personally, but it doesn't stop me wanting it to go away completely, why should it?!

I think the 'move or shut up' line is a little harsh and doesn't really have much basis in reality. You're just making me laugh up my sleeve at you now!

I thought that last line in Onagar's post was uncalled for too. Not the sentiment, but the actual words used.

Onagar - If you think that cigerettes earn enough tax to cover the cost to the government of caring for smokers you are very ignorant.

My PIL for example have smoked for 30 years.
So have racked up a fair few tax for the gov.

But FIL has been claiming incapacity benefit for 10 years due to heart problems (either caused or aggravted by his heavy smoking), He has had to have an angiogram (*sp?) been admitted to hospital twice for heart attacks, He was retired off for poor health from his local government post and is a ridiculous number of pills.

MIL had a stroke 7 years ago, was in hospital for 3 months, needed carers for six months. Is also claiming incapcity benefit.

They cost us as a country a fortune.

And they smell

I had to ask my neighbour's teenage son and his friends to stop throwing their cigarette ends over the fence into my garden. They didn't stop though.

ok estimates of £1.5-1.7bn cost to the tax payer from smokers
estimates of £10bn (1998 figures - too tired to search properly for more recent ones) of revenue generated from smokers buying their tobacco products.

£10bn? Cripes that's a lot of cigarettes!

Well, I guess they pay for their healthcare then?!

Doesn't make it ok though, it's still bad for you. I guess alcohol raises a lot too, and religions pay towards schools- don't get me started on that one! Gaaa, body and mind pollution....

It would be interesting to see some more recent research though, the paper I found was the 1998 one too, I couldn't find anything more recent. I wonder if much has changed since they were 'forced' outside?

all I can find is that they're loosing an estimated £2-4bn (depending on where you read) to the illegal cigarette trade since people are buying cheap cigarettes abroad/smuggling them in due to the raised taxes.

This is the only "recent" thing I can find (just having a quick look) here obviously biased as they're speaking for tobacco industry employers but I should imagine that a Union would make sure it's got pretty correct figures???

sure is a lot - but then I'm reading news stories on another tab (lots of them) where bactches of contraband cigarettes in their Millions have been seized.So I guess the smugglers must have been confident of selling those contraband ones if they'd not been caught!!

(I am a smoker - baccy not cigarettes) and the figures even me)

I sympathise, my neighbours used to sit on the shared steps outside our front door and smoke weed. It used to waft under my door and stink my flat out. I moved house and my new neighbour keeps lighting bonfires. Doesn't hurt to ask nicely VERY though, they might be oblivious and might happily move away a bit if they knew.

Yanbu. My neighbour smokes in his garden, presumably so that his house doesn't smell. Instead, it wafts into mine. I hate it.

Poppity. firstly my apologies for the 'move or shut up' line. That was supposed to come out like the phrase 'put up or shut up' and was meant generally, not that you personally should shut up.

Now if you read your own link, the white paper explains that there can only be a significant risk if you live or work with smokers for long periods.

The figures for smoking taxes versus the costs of their treatment have been posted on MN before and are from the government. I will try to find them again later, but it's no secret. The profit from the tax far outweighs even the most pessimistic estimate of extra costs. Even the anti-smoking groups can't make anything from that so they just post the costs and keep quiet about the tax.

Also you can't assume that all health costs for smokers are due to their smoking.

Those "1000s die from smoking" things you read make it sound like people are dropping like flies, but don't mean that it quite that way.

They mean "1000s of deaths may have been contributed to by smoking" and even then they should go on to say "and by drinking, overeating, lack fo exercise, etc" They are not lying. it's the way the researchers speak about it and they assume you know that. When you read about 1000s dying from obesity that's the same 1000s they are refering to.

As for the car fumes thing look outside at the exhausts of the cars and compare your feelings to those about smoking. In an enclosed room with a car you would die.

Why not ask them if they mind if you put up a high trellis with plants on it? Of course you understand that "you couldn't possibly ask them not to smoke in their own garden" but you do find the smoke drifts over a lot and comes into your dc's room so would they mind?

Then they have the option of saying "no no we'll smoke further down" or "yes go ahead" and you can put up a barrier?

oh, and to whoever said that if your neighbours are doing something legal and you don't like it, then tough: we have a new cafe opened recently at the end of our street. They stay open till 3am at the weekends playing thumping bass music. Because their levels are below the legal limit there's nothing we can do. Does that mean I have to shrug my shoulders and say "ah well, nothing I can do"? Tough, indeed.

Great idea Kitbit, thank-you, much more helpful than "put up or move". Thanks Onagar for that

Not at all Kitbit - that's terrible! How to they ever get permission!? Being aood neighbour and a good person is what its all about!

YANBU - I think you need to have been there. I had it in a house I lived in in London. Sadly they were total tossers in every respect so there was no point asking.

But I really would ask, just ask as nicely as you can. Say you understand when it's raining it may not be possible, but explain about the children's bedrooms and I'm sure they'll move further down the garden. Why wouldn't they? It's not like it's a big deal, it's another 15 seconds worth of walking.

MaryPoppins, they don't have permission. It's rural Spain, and the bar owners have friends in the town hall. Because of recent corruption scandals the town hall has ceased granting any licenses in the town, however in practise a bar can open "license pending" because they never get refused. That I think is how they opened a bar in a quiet residential area, put gaudy signs up on the street corner, and why now they are not being challenged about the large floodlights that illuminate the chairs and tables cluttering up the pavement all the way to the kerb which they don't have permission for either.

However the one thing they have bene careful of is not to play the music above the limit. Just, just below. Because that, yes they could be prosecuted for. So really they are "legal" as it's all "license pending". Doesn't make it nice for those around them though. Same as your smokers, really!

Great suggestion Kitbit

Onagar, I can't see why you keep bringing car fumes into it, the post is not about a car fume problem, it's about inconsiderate neighbours really.

It is unpleasant to have someone else's smoke drifting into your house on a daily basis, especially when you have a child with chest problems. It also says in the paper (which I have read, thanks for another snidey aside btw) that it is a particular risk for children.

As you keep referring to car fumes, would you be happy to live where your neighbours left their car running under your window for 10 mins at a time several times every day, so the fumes drifted in? There is more than one smoker here, it is not a small amount of smoke, and it is not in the great wide open, and it not just the odd time.

I don't know if you smoke, or if the smell particularly offends you, but the OP dislikes it for many reasons, and it is wrong to tell her that she is overreacting because she just believes what she reads in the papers.

As far as the taxes argument goes, yes that's great, FAQ has posted a link. However, it just doesn't seem sensible to me to say people should keep smoking because otherwise we would lose lots of revenue. I can see a politician saying that privately (!) but from any mouth other than that it seems misguided.

Your argument seems to be that you feel that people here are becoming fixated on a bit of smoke when there are other bigger problems? I think most of us (sweeping statement, sorry those who don't agree) would have a problem with those other things too. I don't think I should dislike cigarette smoke exclusively you know. Of course car fumes are more poisonous, that doesn't mean you should discount the poisons in anything else you inhale does it?
I also try my best not to spend any time in an enclosed room with car fumes

I have to say I'm still intrigued about the smells that get through closed windows that people have mentioned.

I went to visit a friend the other day - they have motorbikes in an enclosed "lean to" which has windows directly into the house. The bikes are used regularly, and in the summer the lean to reeks of the smell of warm petrol........but it doesn't get through the windows.

I'd be quite concerned about the sealing on the windows if I was having cigarette smoke smells coming through!

Maybe if there is an air vent in the room? Also some d/g windows have a vent in the top to allow for ventlation, so smells can get through.

We have vents at the top of our d/g. You can close them which helps a little, but it's not a seal like around the rest of the window. I assumed that's where mine comes in.

It's a bit tough in the summer not to be able to have a window open at the back of the house. Especially if you have traffic at the front.

I have a job where I often have to go into the houses of people who smoke. Even if they don't smoke when I'm in there, I still come out smelling of it. It does have a remarkable clinging quality.

OP,
Can I suggest that a savvy approach would be to say nothing to the neighbours about the smoke, but instead you do a pre-emptive strike with a bottle of wine and apologies in advance for the disruption the digger may cause.

Build up the goodwill in advance . You never know, it may work better for you.

That too is a good suggestion.