To be pissed off by the sleeping rough, drunk people

[fleurlechaunte]

who accost me for spare change whenever I walk down the road with my two small children in tow. This happens at least 3 times a week.

I don't mean to generalise here and I know there are real genuine hard luck stories out there but these people do my head in.

If I have any spare change I will be spending it on my children thank you, not on your next Can of Special Brew or a contribution to your next wrap of Brown. Ask the single person in the smart suit or the well dressed young men coming out of the expensive bars that may be able to afford to help you out. Not a single mum with two small kids, pushing a falling to bits buggy.

Well am I?

Yes Edam, me and my friend had a situation like that where a homeless man fell over and his head was split open so you could actually see inside. My friend was practically holding it together with his hands while a circle of people stood round us doing nothing. One, a nurse told my friend what he was doing was wrong but was not prepared to help because she could "get trouble".

You know a lot of you may have thought my OP was a bit unpleasant but reading some of your responses to me, yes, especially you Trig makes it clear I am not the only twat on MN, I am in good company.

I have actually got my hands dirty and got right in there with regards to this city's current homelessness situation, I am more than confident that my contribution has far outweighed my current irritations how many of you can say the same? Perhaps I just have a more realistic viewpoint.

I STILL stand by what I say because lets face it, its not happening to any of you is it?

As for those of you who suggest that I am "using" or "trotting out" my current difficult situation, here is a brief summary, my son was diagnosed with autism, my exh moved out after years of emotional and somtimes physical abuse, I have no money as it turns out x was paying NO bills, including rent. This has ALL happened in the last 6 months, it is fresh in my mind. No matter how much of an arse I thought someone was being I would never say to someone in that situation some of the things that have been said to me on this thread.

I think the thing is, when you get into an argument with someone, and they are disagreeing with you, and as soon as you are challenged, you start telling them things that are not relevent to the discussion, but which are seen as unfortunate things to have happened to someone, it does come across as rather manipulative. I'm sorry, but it does.

"I think beggers shouldn't bother me, can't they see I've got kids, shouldn't they be more thoughtful?"

"That's a terrible attitude, how awful, have some compassion"

"Don't upset me, I'm allowed my opinion. My son has autism, I've been abused and I've got no money."

I'm sorry, but you must be able to see that it would be easy for people to feel that was disclosed with the intention of making people feel they must treat you in a certain way....that's manipulation.

LMAO my computer has a mind of its own! Dunno what the fuck happened there, sorry!

I know I am a lone voice on here but I can fully understand why the OP gets upset at being accosted by drunk man after drunk man when walking up the road with her children.

Like I said earlier, where I work there are gangs of men and they follow you, shout, ask you out, stand in your path etc. I smile and walk on but I do find it intimidating and I don't like it.

Whether the men are homeless or not is irrelevant - I don't like being accosted by drunk men at all really.

People saying - if I was homeless I would be drunk - yes so would I. But when I was sober I woulnd't like it if someone pointed out that when drunk I spent my time harassing women with toddlers.

I wonder how many people are giving a knee jerk reaction here rather than thinking how they would genuinely feel if confronted day in and day out by aggressive drunk men who follow you down the road etc.

To finish my post from before, last time I checked the world did not revolve around the OP!

Hecate, it IS relevant because it is a reason for my "lack of compassion". If these things came out later in the argument then I would be accused of the MN crime of "AIBU by Stealth". Can't win really can you?

I certainly don't feel anyone should treat me differently because of my situation but it is relevant to ME so therefore goes some way to explaining why I might feel the way I do.

I do feel angry, unreasonably or not when people ask me money that I do not have to give. It happens a lot and after a while you do start to think "Look at me, you idiot, I have small children, why would you think I should spare you anything, for the third time this week?". This usually happens on my way to Tesco while I am computing in my head what exactly can be afforded. I don't think it makes me a horrible person or lacking in compassion or just human.

I wasn't in this place previously so maybe had more "compassion" then, which manifested itself in actually getting immersed and getting involved in the reality of what it means to have mental health issues and be homeless. It is easy to dish out 50p and then go away feeling like you have done your bit. I hope I did a lot more than that.

Thanks Shambolic, that is all I am talking about. It really is that simple.

Seriously, if you want to help homeless people then don't give them money. Give them food or give money to charities.

From what i've been reading some of them can make £80-£100 a day begging, which is then mostly spent on drugs or alcohol. There is no incentive for them to try and improve their situation, why would you if you get that amount of money tax free and then benefits and other help on top of that.

It also can lead to exploitation by criminal gangs because it can be quite lucrative.

I know that is a total generalisation and there are many many reasons for people being on the streets, but giving money doesn't help in the long run.

Agree with trixy about giving money to homeless charities rather than directly to people on the street (although I have done it), or offering food (IME rarely taken up though!).

The people I find hardest to refuse are the women with the babies on the tube, even though I know that it is a gang controlled activity...

That's interesting that you haven't always felt like this. I think maybe you're angry at not having any spare money to give, rather than at the people asking. And if that is the case I think that's understandable.

Or maybe attitudes are different when out with children which can make you feel vulnerable and protective...

fleur - a surprising number of nurses are reluctant to offer first aid because they worry about being sued. Shocking. I don't think any nurse HAS ever been sued for helping out a passer-by, though. Tried to clarify the law for an article I wrote and it looks unlikely someone would be sued but the ruddy Nursing and Midwifery Council has changed its guidance, so nurses no longer have a duty to offer help if they see someone in difficulty.

(My sister is a nurse who would and has gone to someone's aid - turned out the cause of the car crash was her dp, which was a little embarrassing... .)

Nurses who help out at accidents or incidents they are passing by are opening a whole can of worms. If they start to treat a patient then the have a duty of care to them and can become liable should something go wrong/they do something wrong and ultimately can be struck of nursing register.
The way to get round it is to not tell anyone on scene you are a nurse, just to say you have first aid knowledge and experience. sad I know but its the way it is.
Doctors on the other hand have a duty where they must help out if passing an accident/incident and there is an injured party(s)

Fleur, I haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed but I think I get the gist.

I would just like to say, having had to step over an even bigger than usual pile of sick and wee outside my gate to get to the shop for my milk that you are absolutely NOT unreasonable.

I'll be compassionate to these people if they will shuffle off to one of the many, many govenrment funded drug and alcohol counselling/threatment centres in this area and NOT piss, puke, scream and wave their £5.99 bottles of vodka around my four year old daughter.

I would really like to know whether those people giving you a hard time for not being 'compassionate' live anywhere near a coterie of rough sleeping drunks. I suspect compassion is a lot easier to find at a distance.

I dont think Fleur is unreasonable for not liking aggressive beggers. Who would?
It is a tad unreasonable for them to realise she is a skint, single mum though.

I mean, that would be hard enough for lucid people, let alone those off their faces on Diamond White

Have we had "Get over yourself" yet? Looking forward to that one. Any takers yet?

Top scorers in the Groupthink category so far:

1. "No one is baiting the OP. She asked if she was BU, and the majority think she is"

2. "no MN orthodoxy
   No ganging up
   No pious posting
   No halo polishing

but hey if you want to read conspiracy theories and bigger girls being cliquey, fair do"

catinthehat you are baffling me.

Not everyone on this thread is agreeing.

So what's your point?

Er, well, exactly - for the Groupthink awards Shambolic!

"Not everyone on this thread is agreeing" as you say, yet clearly it is still possible for certain posters to convince themselves that they are in the majority. (I don't recall anyone sending me a voting paper btw.)

There are lots of lurkers, people who don't bother to post on certain threads even though they have strongly held and evidence based views.

Maybe its because of these strident posters, those who shout others down, those who are incapable of reading and understanding what is actually said. They are incredibly offputting.

Also, there are more ways of throwing your weight around than being a Moldie. Words and phrases are used to intimidate others and make them feel small and stupid. That's what my Bullshit Bingo thing is getting at.

I don't like the MN feeding frenzy habit. I don't like to see hypocrisy in argument. I don't like to see ad hominem attacks.

Hope that's clearer

Taxi for catinthehat, it's time to go now, there's a love.

Crikey.

Moldies?

Um...

MN and for eg this thread don't seem any different to me now than before the exodus etc etc...

I would be interested to know what your view on this particular subject is?

Would also be v interested to see a full version of your bingo card

I also have found through my time on MN and some bad experiences that it is best to entirely avoid topics that you feel very very strongly about. I have ended up extremely upset in the past at what I saw as the illogical and insane stance of others who were very vocal. Now I know what gets me going I avoid those particular topics like the plague.

If you want to argue with people's points then argue. All this cryptic stuff is a bit odd. Or start a thread about it?

Or just avoid threads which you know get you in a lather. We're only internet weirdies anyway, it's not worth the time getting upset in RL about it all...

YANBU.

There is, in fact, a "rule" with begging that you do not, ever ask a woman/bloke with children for change. Nor children or very old folk. Whoever is asking is obv not aware of this unwritten code.

Just say to them "you shouldn't be asking me, I've children with me."

Yanbu to be fed up with constantly being asked, I would imagine it could be very intimidating, especially with your children in tow.

I can't believe some of the responses you've had here, fair enough to disagree with you, but some people are being totally over the top and downright insulting.

I don't believe for one minute that struggling down the street with two kids and your shopping and constantly being asked for money you haven't got day after day would start to grind on anybody, despite any empathy you have for people unlucky enough to be homeless.

OK I made my point clearly I think and, yes I'm arguing for a gentler approach, and maybe a humorous approach. It's always the nastiness in these threads that skews the views on this sort of thread to one side or another.

I've said I DISLIKE the tone of what is being said, and the ASSUMPTIONS about posters opinions and views that have been made. I want to hear all sides of the subject, not be told that there is one view only and anyone who doesn't subscribe is not Righteous.

(Sadly I cannot get into a lather about the subject matter (drunks etc), sorry Sham. I have tried and tried, but just can't get worked up that much)

Anyway lets get fisking some of the less pleasant replies to the explanation you requested earlier:

"Taxi for cat.. there's a love" = piss off I don't want to hear you (possibly meant to be amusing but could be seen as a leetle bitchy)

"avoid threads which you know get you in a lather" = piss off I don't want to hear you (attempt to be patronising fails as Cat had already pointed out that this is what people do. Hence Cat probably doesn't find the subject of the thread upsetting or she wouldn't be on it!)

"it's not worth the time getting upset in RL about it all" = piss off I don't want to hear you (makes the same point as before, and oops! by splashing the accusations around, I've now given it away that I am the one who is actually rattled by something on the interweb!)

Now imagine that treatment dished out to someone who DOES care about the subject matter! Are they going to feel free to post?
No, they've been told to shut up and not subtly either!

Anyway, bored now, let the thread get back to the people who have a view on the subject matter.