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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

934 replies

GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 08:45

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

OP posts:
fraggletits · 06/04/2009 10:40

wow what a thread! I'm coming to this a tad late but just wanted to say...

my parents are aethiests - I went to a lovely C of E village primary school and i loved it. I was in the choir, I was in the nativity, I did readings in church, I loved the sense of belonging and security that faith gives you....especially children who need to feel secure. (I would have been mortified if my mother kept me sitting out of things, though this was back in the 80's so it just wouldn't have happened anyway)

...then at about 8 or 9 I remember sitting in church thinking 'hmmm, this all seems a tad far fetched' and that was that. It just isn't truly 'in' me to believe fully.

I am an agnostic and we have chosen to privately educate our children but thankfully our school does do the nativity and easter and harvest and also celebrates all other religious festivals too.

I want my kids to be all-rounders, to know about and take part in as much of life as possible, to pick and choose what is and isn't for them and like it or not, religion is a huge part of life.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 14:21

'What about the issue of some church schools preferring to select the children of church-going parents? '

This happens in places like London where there is a choice of schools. Catchment comes into play first. I live in a large village with 3 primary schools. One is CofE. Those who live in the catchment area of the Cof E one can have a place (whether they go to church or not or are Christian or not)but if they are not in the catchment area, selection comes into play and people start going to church, if they don't already. I would actually rate the other 2 schools higher so it was never an issue for me.
When I taught full time in a Cof E school it was the one school in the village, everyone was in the catchment area and everyone had a place if they wanted it. C of E schools are generally oversubscribed, and that is how they come to select and people get the idea that everyone has to be churchgoing Cof E.

I don't know why people get so het up about it-vicars, priests etc would be overjoyed if assemblies and prayers produced all these ardent Christians that people seem to fear!Churches would be full to overflowing!-in reality people turn out to be more like fraggletits.

I go into lots of schools and I haven't come across one that doesn't have hymns or prayers for at least some days of the week. If Heads are atheists themselves they tend to get around it but saying 'if you want to make it your prayer say amen'-unfortunately a 5 yr old doesn't appreciate the subtle difference in wording.

Like fraggletits I think it would be sad to get rid of carols services, nativity plays, harvest festivals, Easter bonnet parades etc.

onagar · 06/04/2009 15:32

fraggletits, you say you are agnostic and ..
"I want my kids to be all-rounders, to know about and take part in as much of life as possible, to pick and choose what is and isn't for them and like it or not, religion is a huge part of life."

That sounds reasonable to me.

So do you or the school involve them in other ceremonies too or just christian? Perhaps the pagan rituals, perhaps a play about Odin and the world tree as I suggested recently? Some ancient celtic rites perhaps? a prayer to Shiva the Destroyer? Do they have prayer mats so they can pray to allah?

See most people who say they want their kids exposed to a religion actually mean "to the proper christian one of course"

onagar · 06/04/2009 15:33

No need to get rid of the plays etc. As plays they can be fun and you'd then be able to make lots of different ones.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 16:17

Our culture is Christian-you would expect DCs to get English culture in an English school.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 16:35

I was in a school last Thursday, they were having an Easter bonnet competition and since I was on playground duty first thing in the morning they were all showing me their hats. One little girl came up and said "I haven't made one-it isn't my religion", I just said "I expect you have celebrations for your religion" and she went on to tell me all about Eid, another child joined in-they were quite happy not to have a hat. Those with hats may not have been a member of a church but they celebrated Easter-they had chocolate eggs, many of them told me about Easter egg hunts, the Easter bunny, grandparents visiting etc. Easter is their culture.

Vamonos · 06/04/2009 16:39

Thanks for the info Piscesmoon - I'm new to all this (and hence naively shocked at how the system works) as DD is only 2 and I haven't worked in education.

I think I understand from what you say that catchment is always the first decider for whether a child gets into their preferred primary, is that right? Then if that preferred primary is oversubscribed, and it is a church primary, children who don't come into the catchment but still want to go there may be selected for on the criteria of whether their parents are church-goers?

So - for example - Family A and Family B might live next door to each other, just outside the catchment for state primary Church School C. The parents of child A and child B would prefer that their children attended School C for a variety of reasons, eg it might be on the way to the parent's workplace, near a grandparent / other childcare, best friends are going there, good Ofsted results etc.

Family A are church-goers, and Family B are not. I can see why Family B might be 'het up' about the fact that their child will face discrimination and disadvantage as to choice compared to Family A's child purely on the basis of the parents' church-going (or lack of). It is after all a state primary, and Family B are tax-payers too. I can also see why Family A might shrug and go 'well I don't know what all the fuss is about, it's a church school'.

Personally I think it is wrong that children face discrimination with regard to certain state services because their parents either don't practise the 'right' religion or don't practise any at all. And quite bizarre that parents are put in the position of pretending to be religious in some cases.

Onager - yes I'd agree with integrating a wide variety of cultural ceremonies, in the form of plays, dancing, crafts, story-telling etc - sounds valuable in terms of helping to understand the world they live in.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 16:40

I was in a school last Thursday, they were having an Easter bonnet competition and since I was on playground duty first thing in the morning they were all showing me their hats. One little girl came up and said "I haven't made one-it isn't my religion", I just said "I expect you have celebrations for your religion" and she went on to tell me all about Eid, another child joined in-they were quite happy not to have a hat. Those with hats may not have been a member of a church but they celebrated Easter-they had chocolate eggs, many of them told me about Easter egg hunts, the Easter bunny, grandparents visiting etc. Easter is their culture.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 16:41

Sorry-didn't mean to do it twice!

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 16:44

That is correct Vamonos-I'm not saying it is right-just the way it works. I'm not sure what happens in somewhere like London where there are more schools to choose from.

Vamonos · 06/04/2009 17:13

Piscesmoon - I'd certainly agree that children should learn at school about the cultural origins of Easter, Christmas etc. And make bonnets etc in art class. And I'd certainly never want to ban chocolate eggs

But I do think that it is a different issue altogether for Christian worship to be the norm as part of the school day.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 17:59

I agree Vamonos, unless it is a church school. I think it is essential that RE is taught as a subject, but I don't think it is the school's place to do collective worship.However-at the moment it is the law.

spongebrainmaternitypants · 06/04/2009 19:12

pisces, nope, no hymns, no prayers, no nativity play, no Easter bonnet!

We also used to get our wrist slapped by OFSTED but also ignored it - we taught RE and had trips to churches, etc, but we never had one single complaint from parents about our lack of religious observance.

This is no longer a Christian culture in any recognisable sense and for most people god is an irrelevance.

fraggletits · 06/04/2009 19:26

Onagar you clearly know your stuff!

And yes DD's school (she's 3) celebrates all relevant festivals of todays current main religions (Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Jewish) I've probably forgotten a few there, but they also cover things like Chinese new year.

When I say celebrate, I mean they look at the cultures and what happens at the festivals and then make things relevant to it out of paper and paint and kitchen roll tubes and whatever else.

Praying to either Shiva and Allah are not festivals, they are daily rituals of a beliver in that particular God (and I remember going to a mosque with my secondary school and kneeling on a mat, we also went to meet nuns in the local convent....all fascinating....)

They don't pray to God at her school i.e there is no assembly. The school is of Christian denomination but they are in my opinion educating the children really well and in an age appropriate about other religions and about respecting others beliefs.....i.e, just because you don't do something, doesn't mean it's strange or wrong.

I would love her to learn all about the pagans and Shiva etc, but obviously when she's a tad older.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 19:28

If no one complained I expect they were all happy-if parents had complained, then action would have had to be taken. No one is going to 'rock the boat' if they don't have to.

fraggletits · 06/04/2009 19:29

actually just like vamonos said

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 19:34

A lot depends on how the Head interprets the law- I suggest people ask searching questions when choosing a school-don't just make assumptions as you may be wrong.

elodiemum · 07/04/2009 10:20

Can I ask. Do you allow your son to celebrate Christian festivals such as Easter and Christmas? How to you adapt these to fit in with your belief system. Non Christian seem very happy to live by the church calendar and the holidays and festivals created the church but feel we should stop having church schools - It seems to be a pick and miss - choose the bits you like - leave the bits you don't. I agree there should be an option for people not wanting a faith based education.

I am a Christian, and I do want my daughters to attend a Cof E school, but this does mean going out of catchment area. The nearest C of E school is lovely and the church members offer lots if help by volunteering to listen to children read, fund-raising and running holiday clubs etc.

No Christian would want to make your son stand up and say something that he doesn't believe is true, I suspect the teacher choosing him to do this doesn't know where his beliefs are at this moment in time.

You have the choice to either speak to the staff and explain that you don't want your child to be asked to do thing like this again, or you can use it as an opportunity for your child to partake in a historical role play - if he was in a theatre production he woudl also be expected to say thing she doesn't mean or believe - so may be you could see it like that.

Any Cof E school will teach the Christian faith and will do so from the point of view of this is what we believe. Are there really no other options of non C of E schools accessible to you? Many schools near us (in the lake District) are Cof E schools in the villages so I realise their is not always an option.

At least we live in a country where we have freedom to choose our faith and beliefs - so many don't.

I hope you find a solution you feel happy with. A few years ago I woudl have objected to, but then I became a Christian again. I remember that I used to think all Christian where a bit stupid for believing such nonsense - can't believe I am now a Christian myself - but that's a different story.

Tortington · 07/04/2009 10:23

oh come on - i am a practising catholic but even i know that we superimposed our festivals onto pagan ones.

elodiemum · 07/04/2009 10:25

I believe that it is easier for a child to experience some sort of belonging and participation in a faith and then if they choose to leave this as an adult fine. It's very hard to choose to join or participate in something that you have never experienced.

For that reason I think all kids should have some experience of collective worship as I believe that will leave more avenues open for them when they are old enough to choose for themselves - you can't truly choose something you have never experienced.

Habbibu · 07/04/2009 10:28

I'd never experienced Atheism, elodiemum! And agree, custy, the whole Christmas/easter thing is such a red herring and yet has been rehearsed so many times on this thread.

elodiemum · 07/04/2009 10:29

The C of E school near me prefers to take children from non Christian backgrounds. The kids who are being raised as Christians already no about God, they believe it's the other kids who near to hear the word and that is there philosophy. Any kids going to this school will get a very Strong emphasis on the Christian faith.

The level of church involvement in each school varies from school to school - I guess it's parent choice when choosing the school, but it is hard if that is your catchment school.

Donna

elodiemum · 07/04/2009 10:39

Yes. I am aware the dates and many traditions on the Christian calender where taken from pagan festivals- but should imagine that in a C of E church the hymns they sing and activities they do are Christian related. Just wondered if people are mums are happy for kids to be in nativity plays etc.

prettybird · 07/04/2009 11:29

I am happy for ds to be involved in nativity plays (and Eid and Diwali celebrations) becasue they are enacted on the principle that "some people beleive...." and done as a form of Religious Education.

I think that the OP is concerned about is that her ds is being asked to lead the congregation in a pieve of worship, which is a bit different.

Vamonos · 07/04/2009 14:43

Elodiemum - I would be very annoyed if my daughter was ever admitted to a state school on the basis that she 'needed to hear the word'

I think that's actually worse than being turned away for not being a practising Christian.