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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

934 replies

GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 08:45

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

OP posts:
spongebrainmaternitypants · 05/04/2009 08:13

piscesmoon, have you had a bit of a sense of humour failure?! The at the end of that sentence clearly indicated I was joking!

spongebrainmaternitypants · 05/04/2009 08:20

justabout, totally agree with you - met alot of people who fit this category sadly.

"Religion is the opium of the masses" has a more than a ring of truth to it IMHO.

piscesmoon · 05/04/2009 09:17

Sorry-I was tired-it was the last thing I wrote before I went to bed. I never get the hang of the 'smileys'-particularly the grin(it never looks very nice!).

Faddles · 05/04/2009 11:41

But kids aren't indoctrinated into christianity by schools

onagar · 05/04/2009 11:46

Faddles, do you live in France? All UK schools are required by law to to make the kids worship god at least for a few minutes a day. Some go much further and bring god into everything.

HuntForTheEggExpectTheWorst · 05/04/2009 11:54

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

spongebrainmaternitypants · 05/04/2009 13:00

pisces, would this be better?

piscesmoon · 05/04/2009 14:31

Yes-I think it is the teeth-it is a leer more than a grin!

Vamonos · 05/04/2009 15:49

Oh dear, am coming to this a bit late, but am really shocked that so many responses to the OP?s dilemma are along the lines of ?well why did you send your DS there if you?re not religious ? why not subject them to a hideous commute instead, or educate them yourselves, or go private??

Would those who think the OP should ?get on her bike? with regard to schools have the same attitude if their local doctor?s surgery asked patients as a matter of course to say a prayer before receiving any treatment? Or if a rabbi, priest or vicar was routinely dispatched to bless your child in the maternity ward (you wouldn?t get any choice as to which by the way, would just depend on what religion your local NHS hospital happened to ?be?.)

Would you think it was reasonable for those who questioned this to be told to ?go private? or ?go home and self-medicate??

piscesmoon · 05/04/2009 16:38

When I had DS1 the vicar came around and held a little communion service (NHS patient and hospital). People could take part or not take part and/or have their baby blessed.I wasn't in long enough with DS2 and 3 so either they had stopped or I wasn't the right day. I think all hospitals have chaplains-as do the armed forces-Britain is a Christian country.
I know that in Scotland my friend had a choice of the RC doctors or the protestant doctors-she was a bit surprised.
The school was there before the OP-if she is really against it the answer is to go elsewhere-not expect them to change.

Vamonos · 05/04/2009 16:56

Piscesmoon - I wasn't saying that chaplains have no place in hospitals, not at all.

As you said, your DS's blessing was a matter of active choice. Not a situation that you would have to actively 'opt out of' (and possibly feel awkward about doing so) if it wasn't for you?

onagar · 05/04/2009 17:04

"The school was there before the OP-if she is really against it the answer is to go elsewhere-not expect them to change"

You could say that about so many things that are just wrong.

Vamonos · 05/04/2009 17:05

Also - can you imagine a situation where you would have to prove that you were the 'right kind of' church-goer before your child was allowed treatment at your local NHS C of E or Catholic hospital?

Would you feel happy if you were forced to drive them an extra 20 miles to another NHS hospital in the next town who would take them?

piscesmoon · 05/04/2009 20:00

Faith schools are there because people like them!! If no one sent their DCs they would be phased out. They are constantly among the most successful and are over subscribed. They are very open about what they are, I don't think it is a big issue as you still get the worship part in a non faith school. It isn't a choice between religious and secular-it is a choice between denominational and non denominational.

spongebrainmaternitypants · 05/04/2009 20:09

pisces, I don't think the fact that people like them is the point - there are lots of things that people like that aren't provided by the state.

As discussed earlier in the thread, the fact that they are over-subscribed has nothing to do with their religious bias - this is clear from the number of parents who pretend to be religious in order to get their kids into these schools. It is because they often select (openly or otherwise) and selective schools are always going to be more successful because you have interested and motivated parents.

Many thousands of atheist parents have no choice but to send our children to CofE schools simply because there are so bloody many of them. I am not prepared to drive my son for miles to avoid this - it would not be fair on him and I don't see why I should.

If all schools were non-denom we wouldn't have this problem!

This argument is getting a little circular now!!

piscesmoon · 05/04/2009 22:35

You would have the same problem. Non denominational schools have to have a daily act of worship and it has to be broadly Christian. We are going around in circles!

dreamylady · 05/04/2009 23:10

Spongebrain and Piscesmoon, it seems a bit strange to me that non-dom schools have to have an act of worship every day - what for? To stop us going round in circles why don't we just agree to take the act of worship out of the schools altogether? And let parents and families teach whatever attitudes/beliefs they want to at home?

Suppose what I'm saying is I believe education should be secular - or at the very least if there's to be a choice of religious then it should be in the private system not state funded. Haven't thought through what the wider social impact of that would be, but can only think of positives.

I've never heard Vamanos's analogy before, its very striking - I wonder if anyone can find any holes in it, because if not its a good one I'd like to use myself!

thought I'd chuck that in, but off to bed now, dd has a nasty cold and has been sleeping really badly -therefore we all have (yawn) look forward to next instalment!
night all

MrsMerryBunnyGirlHenry · 05/04/2009 23:22

I agree with the OP. As a Christian I wouldn't be happy about my child reading a passage like that about a religion that I didn't believe in. At the same time I have accepted that my child will, at some stage, make his own way in the world with regard to religious beliefs, and that it's wrong for me to try to force him to conform to my religious choices. However at age 5 I don't think it's unreasonable for a parent to put their foot down as in GL's case (unless the child really insisted that they believed in it, in which case I'd probably reluctantly relent).

Also I don't think sending your child to a faith school means you have to accept your child actively participating in all the religious practices of that school. Even within each religion there are so many schools of thought on every aspect of life that people should not be expected to agree all the time. IMO religion is practised well when people are given genuine freedom of thought.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 08:07

I post on it regularly dreamylady because people don't understand that all English schools have a Christian basis. In this country, church and state are intertwined and Cof E is the state religion (the Queen is Head of both, PM appoints Bishops, Bishops are in house of Lords etc etc). They are state schools and have the state religion.

If people think back to their own schooldays they must have sung hymns, said prayers and yet they expect it magically to have disappeared. There is the expectation that if you don't choose a faith school you don't get religion-this is not the case. OP could equally have sent her DC to a non denominational school and he could still have been asked to do a Bible reading-the difference would be that it would probably not be in church.

Schools have to hold daily acts of worship and it has to be broadly Christian and they have to teach RE. This is the law and so people have the right to withdraw their DC both from assembly and RE lessons.

explanation of 1998 Education Act

humanist society -your rights

muslim advice

I put the last link in to show how difficult it can be-for example Muslims don't want 51% Christian worship in state schools.

I think that the government should make the religious content of schools very clear and then you wouldn't get the misunderstanding that crops up on here on a regular basis.

There really isn't a lot of difference between a faith school and a non faith school which is why it doesn't really matter if a Cof E school is the only option your village offers, all it means is that the vicar will drop in, you may visit church and you may have additional prayers. You get the basics in any state school.

spongebrainmaternitypants · 06/04/2009 09:06

pisces, not in my world they wouldn't - there is no justification whatsoever for a daily act of Christian worship and I would wish to see this abolished.

I taught in a school with an atheist head and we never mentioned god or Christianity in assemblies - it didn't stop them being moral and thoughtful.

Unfortunately I understand all too well how pervasive religion is in schools - and it's about time it was changed.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 09:36

I don't think that there is a place for collective worship spongebrain-I am just saying that it is the law. Your Head could have been prosecuted. I am very surprised if you managed to get by without a single hymn, Nativity play or Easter bonnet.

piscesmoon · 06/04/2009 09:38

The only way to have it abolished is to separate the church from the state-I expect it will come one day.

onagar · 06/04/2009 10:02

I know of one school that has a religion-free assembly. Every ofsted report notes that they don't worship god and gives them a black mark. Their overall success rate is so high they get away with it and people fight to get their children in there. (They don't reject religious people on the basis of their attendence at church)

To me there is no difference between compulsary worship at school and compulsary worship at hospitals or the supermarket. A class ABOUT religion may be part of education. but the worship is only about declaring your belief and obedience to god.

onagar · 06/04/2009 10:04

... or to Allah if your school has a lot of muslim pupils.

Vamonos · 06/04/2009 10:25

Piscesmoon - when you say "There really isn't a lot of difference between a faith school and a non faith school which is why it doesn't really matter if a Cof E school is the only option your village offers ... "

What about the issue of some church schools preferring to select the children of church-going parents?