to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

[GooseyLoosey]

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

habibu - no the beach was a great example because like lord of the flies it shows what happens when people are taken out of society and its restrictions

The "do as thou whilst lest it harm none" is the foundation of Wiccan faith - yet you rarely see it taught in schools or in general society - as so many people consider Wicca somehow not moral!

'The comfortable place is respecting children as individual human beings with a right to decide important questions for themselves and not as appendages to be force fed whatever beliefe system their parents have adopted.'

I think the central point was made by Debs40, earlier today. If you are a church going Christian your DC is bound to be influenced because they will see your faith, visit church etc -in the same way if you are an atheist your DC is bound to be influenced because they will be aware of your views. It is the same as a Labour MP may well have grown up in a strongly labour household, an actor may well come from a family of people connected with the stage. There is nothing wrong with that-you need to go with your own instincts, anything else would be false.
However it is very important to remember that they are not appendages of the parents and they have minds of their own, some from an early age. A labour MP has to accept that his DC may join the Conservative party, the famous actor may get an accountant DC, the Christian may get a DC who doesn't believe in God and the atheist may get a DC who is a regular churchgoer. A good parent should be able to accept the fact that they are different and still be able to have a good relationship.

Peachy - I'm not a great fan of the French educational system myself. It focuses too much on memorising and not enough on critical thinking, imho.

But that is another matter. Re its secular nature, I am a big fan.

cote do you think maybe the lack of critical thinking may be linked to the lack of religious and philosophical learning in French schools?

Sorry, putting DS to bed and looks like the debate has moved on!

Yes, morals of our society as defined by norms and by the law. So, to take the abortion debate (reluctantly as don't want to open that can of worms ), non-denom schools would teach that in this country abortion is legal in certain circumstances however, many people believe it is wrong for these reasons, also many people believe the law in this country is still too draconian for these reasons. Those children brought up by Catholics at home would have their own views, of which they would be perfectly entitled in my non-denom world!

It isn't perfect and it there are lots of grey areas, but that is what makes education so fascinating.

IIRC (I may not) his point as more general- the French Government don't record colour for example, so therefore don't have any racially aggravated crime because they don't have race or somesuch.

I think anyway.

Obviously not.

Lack of religious influence in classroom has nothing to do with how French teach - lots of discipline, go memorise this poem etc.

What I don't like about the French educational system is its style of teaching. That is a completely separate issue than what it teaches.

Peachy - I think you are remembering the census. I've never taken part in one (we don't really live in French territory) but what I remember being told is that they don't collect data on religion or race (because everyone is equal in the eyes of the state or some such).

There is quite a bit of data about racist crimes, ethnic origin of various criminals etc, though.

That may well be it Cote- was a chance remark in a lecture nce, blink and you would miss it. Interesting though nonetheless.

ok cote - fair enough - I was genuinely interested - as when at teacher training college they told us about this all hallowed french system where teachers were revered and respected and it took syears and years of training to teach in the french education system. Hence my curiosity.

spongebrain - saying that it isn't a perfect solution makes me warm to your idea - I am by nature someone who cannot and will not take things blindly and without questioning(hilarious given my chosen faith!) and you seemed to have this fabulous idea that would solve the worlds problems so naturally I had to disagree with you :-) The only problem with what you are saying is that in the RE teaching world we often debate how RE should be taught - and many educated people will argue that children given the learn by rote system (hindu's believe, muslims believe etc) never truely understand spirtuality and philosophy in quite the same way. Does that make sense?

GCSE RE by the way is taught on a basic forumla of "some think......others think.....I think......." for each and every topic. Is that the kind of secularism you are talking about?

Absolutely - some others think, I think, etc is exactly what I would be expecting. I have little time for learning by rote.

The beauty of secular education is that you may well find many of the major religions represented in the classroom to add life to your lessons. So when I taught RE, I was lucky enough to have Christians, a Hindu and two Muslims in my class. When we learnt about festivals they were able to bring in relevant items/photos and sometimes even people into the lesson and really bring it to life for other children. The answered questions and led discussions - and these were primary age children! It was wonderful to watch and taught them all so much, and as a very committed atheist I was happy to chair theses discussions.

nomore are you a GCSE RE Teacher then? Am applyng for my PGCE next year. Gulp.

spongebrain then we are onthe same wavelength at last (surprisingly!) I think an important distinction to make is that once we get to secondary age education that is precisely what you get - secular (sort of) religious education (or personal social and moral education as some schools like to call it) - the problem then is just the primary schools to sort out?!!

Why do schools/curriculum authorities etc presume that its ok to indoctrinate primary age chilren but not secondary age children?

You are happy I presume with the way secondary schools handle the god subject?

peachy I am yes but having amummy break - hence al the time in the world to talk drivel on mumsnet!!

Do it - the pgce i mean - you are good at getting your point across - thats half the battle

My professor that taught me how to teach is a quaker and an amazing example to education

my professor who taught me (sorry bad grammer.....)

Thanks nomore, that means a lot. I desperately ant to, so its just a Q of being accepted

at nomore - agreeing with a Catholic, oh dear, don't tell my atheist friends!!

Not all secondary schools are secular unfortunately - we have two local secondary schools that are Catholic, one of which has a resource centre for children with autism which is very difficult for us to place children who aren't Catholic (I work in SEN now).

So, if one of my children was autistic and needed the extra support of a resource they would have to be placed in a Catholic school which I could never allow - I have a gay brother and an IVF baby so Catholicism and me are never going to be at one!

But, yes, that's the general idea!

why wouldn't you?

Presume you have a degree? (or will have by the time you apply) and presume you can string a coherant sentence together in an interview situation?

then you should get accepted - somewhere at the very least!

Will you do RE? (sorry OP hijacking your thread now!)

I need to live where you live so I get all the catholic resources and you need to live where I live where noone gives a shit about religion!!

Sounds like a plan!

But once I become Prime Minister I'll be closing the school down so your move may have been in vain!

seriously though I am dissapointed to hear my fellow RCs being so prejudiced.....are they desperately over subscribed? the SEN unit I mean...

Yes, the school and SEN unit are hugely over-subscribed.

We also have a Catholic school about 40 miles away which is a specialist school for children with autism - because of the religious element we are unable to place some children there because their parents are opposed to the teaching of the Catholic faith. It's very tricky.

Catholic teaching on IVF:

"IVF violates the rights of the child: it deprives him of his filial relationship with his parental origins and can hinder the maturing of his personality. It objectively deprives conjugal fruitfulness of its unity and integrity, it brings about and manifests a rupture between genetic parenthood, gestational parenthood, and responsibility for upbringing. This threat to the unity and stability of the family is a source of dissension, disorder, and injustice in the whole of social life."

Not something I want my son taught for obvious reasons .

AHHH so its not the catholic school with the unit that is refusing the kids its the parents of the kids who aren';t comfortable with the possibility they might "catch" catholicism from the school

Have I got that right?

Shame if so - if I had an autistic child and the local muslim school had the best autism unit in the area then I would send my child there...no question (but make sure I attended church a little more regularly than I do now!!)