to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

[GooseyLoosey]

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

No, you should have to pay for them to go to a Catholic school or send them to a non-denominational state school.

OK so you would argue that every school in the country must be non-denominational and Christianity must not be the main religion taught in schools and everyone with a religion who wants their children to be educated in the ideals and boundaries of their faith must pay for it?......

Who is in charge of moral instruction/encouragement then?

What morals would these schools be based on?

I'm not being antagonistic for once - I am genuinely interested how this idea would work in RL - as I agree in Utopia type scenario it is ideal solution

Yes. Definitely ideal solution - everyone would be able to go to a non-denom school where we would learn about living with a variety of faiths and none, and would understand why people with faith celebrate in the way they do and they're not different or weird cos we would know individuals of that religion and not just be in a homogeneous mass with only others of our religion to mix with.

Not sure why you think non-denominational schools would struggle with moral instruction . Do you think us non-believers wander around in a moral vacuum?!

Quite capable of teaching morals without religion.

YABU I do not believe in Allah and would not send my child to a Islamic school even if it was the closest, best ofsted or what ever as it would be a waste of their resources and my child's education.

I hardly think it being the closest school is a valid argument tbh.

you chose to send your child to that school and so you have to be prepared for there to be some mention of religion.

If you have no faith that is your choice, but I don't think letting your child take part in an Easter service is going to turn them in to Ned Flanders, just as letting mine learn about Islam at their schools is not going to turn them in to suicide bombers.

"If you are totally opposed to religion being forced on your dc, do you then not celebrate easter or Christmas? how can you explain these events?"

Christmas is when streets are decorated and everyone gets presents. Easter is when kids scream with joy as they hunt chocolate eggs in the garden.

(I don't even know myself what religious significance Easter might have.)

DS1 just took part in a passover feast, but as yet has not has to have bits of his willy removed nor has he grown a beard and turned down pork sausages.

He had a lovely experience of how others worship, and a good time was had by all

I can't see any way that a non faith school would struggle with morality; the discussion of them in a philosophoical context would surely be OPK though? And some level of RE in a 'this is what X does....' sort of way (either that or you're paying my benefits coz I will spend my life out work LOL )

Thoush IIRC if yur degree is useless you're allowed another funded one.... hmm only another £20k debt then .

SamsMama I also have a Sam, DS1, named for the King as I had so many problems yet he survied fine (hyperemesis, actual eclampsia).

"just as letting mine learn about Islam at their schools is not going to turn them in to suicide bombers"

cos, of course, that's what defines Islam

religious tolerance at its best

spongebrain - please consider the definition of MORAL

Then I'll pop back for more discussion - you're good at it!

mor·al (môrl, mr-)
adj.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

n.

1. The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
2. A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
3. morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong

Taken from the free dictionary that pops up when you google "definition of moral"

Again I ask the question - whose morals do these non-denominational schools follow......

Or a better question actually might be "Whose moral standards do these non-denomenational schools follow?"

They follow the morals of ur society.

yes these have evolved alongside a national Church but that does not make them inseparable any more than being an Atheist makes you immoral.

"I get very fed up with people saying "oh, I want to teach them to think for themselves" when really what they mean is 'I can't be bothered to go to the trouble of teaching them about religion.'"

That is just WRONG.

I just spent hours teaching DD various letters, cooing in appreciation as she scribbled them one after the other, and put them together to read her name, mummy, daddy, etc. While a very restless pregnant belly has been killing me.

Parenthood is laden with hours lost while teaching some simple, thankless, boring little thing to DC. Like putting shoes on. Or toilet training. All those and more we do gladly.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that we don't teach DC about religion/faith/God etc because we "can't be bothered to go to the trouble of teaching them about religion"???

peachy thats my point - our "society" has become so diverse that which aspects of it do we follow?

look at abortion.....in my church is it awful and not allowed, in other denominations it is down personal choice

Our "society" is now full of muslims, Hindu's, Jews, Sikhs, atheists, pagans, buddhists.....the list is endless - all with very different morals...some say its wrong to kill, others say its ok to kill in certain circumstances - some take the not kill moral to the extreme of not killing animals as well as humans

so society's morals are a little confused wouldn't you say?

So which morals do we pick and choose for our new amazing and just and fair etc non-denominational schools?

Do you not cover any faiths cote? I only ask as ds1 adores hisworldfaiths book, in fact it was the only thing he read until he found beastquest

Therewas something about Lord Siva on tv the other day andtey ran off to get the book- I was in the same way I would have been if they had gone forany of ourreference collection

Kimi - "Allah" is just the word in Arabic for "God". It is the exact same deity asthe Judeo-Christian God. In fact, the Quran explains in quite some detail that the God who sent down the Quran is also the God of the Bible and the Torah. If one day you feel like expanding your horizons and read the Quran, you will see that there is an entire chapter there on Mary, mother of Jesus Christ.

So yes, you do believe in Allah. You just didn't know it

Tsk mn, deleted my last messageas a servlet error

Do you not have any teachiong on religion Cote? i found as ds1 is interested in the comparative style learning of it that the first book he got into (pre Beastquest- I loathe those books but heck its printed word and it all helps) was a DK guide to religion; they hd something on about Lord Siva on the other night and they ran off for the book- I was as I would be watching an 8 and nine year old, both with some SEN, wanting a book.

We do have a fair reference section for their use though, very tiny percentage is faith related.

Peachy - DD is not even 4 yet, so not yet. At some point I am sure we will go into what people mean when they say "God", "prayer", "faith", etc but I would like to delay that day for as long as possible. The obvious reason is that I would like her to have a mind of her own at that point and question what I (or others) tell her.

I think ds got his book at 5 but he is very adnanced in that way (qyuuestioning etc)- not a pride statement: fact (ASD, SEN, but verbal age and language age of 21 at age 6).

Saying that the book just shas a different faith on each page and says 'Tis is Buddha ? Siva ? mahavira and people of X faith beleive....' so it is factual, there is no question- those people DO beleive that.

nomoreamover - re "argue that every school in the country must be non-denominational and Christianity must not be the main religion taught in schools... I am genuinely interested how this idea would work in RL - as I agree in Utopia type scenario it is ideal solution"

Not utopic at all. Believe it or not, this exists in RL. It is called a secular country.

Hop on a train and come visit France one day. You will see that schools are completely religion-free. There is no cross on the walls. No prayer. No nativity plays. No mention of God etc at all.

"the idea from Cote that as a Chrsitian I should not try to teach my kids about faith"

You have misunderstood.

I wasn't telling you what you should or shouldn't teach your DC.

I was saying that you didn't have to teach them your faith in God in order to teach them "principles and values". And you don't.

Absolutely - I envy the French education system. But I find it difficult to see how England could do the same based on the fact they have a monarchy that has shunned* anyone not protestant

And of course France is doing a grand job they are a mostly Catholic country

*metaphorically speaking

Peachy - I wouldn't be against doing that but DD is nowhere near that level of speech and understanding. If I pointed to some pictures and said "This is Shiva" etc, she would remember those names next time, but it wouldn't mean anything more than "This is Minnie, and that is Mickey Mouse" to her.

that's fair enough cote, I was curiousrather than critical

I do recall certain lecturers in ethics being very critical of theFrench systerm in terms of recoprding (orrather not) diversity and associated claims to be diverse and havean accepting society, but bar that recall I dont know so much about it.

Oh, Threadie - I am sorry! The um was meant to imply that I wasn't entirely sure what I meant either...

nomore - the beach ends up rather like Lord of the Flies, doesn't it? Not maybe the ideal analogy, then.

Our society has been "full" of all the people you speak of for some time now, and Christianity is, in the grand scheme of things, also a relatively recent incomer to these shores. And between Christians - between Catholics, even - you'll get varying interpretations of moral codes.

And yet societies cope - because morals are part of being human, of how we function as a civilised society, of how we don't all end up clawing each others eyes out for the last loaf of bread every day. Not because in general we think Jesus/Buddha/Vishnu said so, (and will maybe punish us if we don't) but because we know, by and large, that a level of civility is what keeps us together.

The basic moral code of Do As You Would Be Done By is a damn good start.