to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

[GooseyLoosey]

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

habbibu, I launch into an insightful discourse and open my eyes three paragraphs in, to realise that they have gone outside and are skateboarding.

Ah, I see. Well, they're getting lots of exercise and fresh air then. Which is good.

And sorry I trampled in on your earlier post without understanding properly. I was skimming and speedposting. (That 'um' or 'er' at the beginning of a post is truly humiliating. It says 'you are so wide of the mark that I don't really know where to start'.

Picking up (somewhat late) on justabout's map analogy at 12:37:26, my problem with that is that it falls down as an analogy. For me, it's the equivalent of handing someone a map of Middle Earth or other fantasy kingdom from the start of three-volume sword-and-sorcery epic, and asking them to negotiate their way from St Pancras to Charing Cross using it.

I'd absolutely refute that there is anything "actively atheist" about not bringing your children up in a faith actively. I have a problem with this "let them choose when they are older" business - in order to make a poper informed "choice" they surely have to know equally about all the available religions and gods of the world? And, well - look at them all!! And look here too. (Not sure I like "secular/non-religious/atheist/agnostic" being an option in a list of religions, but interesting to note that over a billion people actively declare themselves as such).

You don't need to know all of the alternative and bad accounts of (eg) the diversity of species to make a judgement on (eg) evolutionary theory. Equally, you don't need to know all religions in order to make informed judgements about god. Theology isn't anthropology.

I'm not saying you do, because this idea of "letting them choose" isn't mine. But it would seem that, the more options you have, the more of an informed "choice" they could make.

At least I would think that if I didn't think the whole idea was daft in the first place. People end up with the religion they are most culturally attuned to. If you've never heard of "god" and never been to a Christian church or met a Christian missionary, you're not suddenly and spontaneously going to become Christian, because you haven't been exposed to the necessary cultural indoctrination.

Choice in this context is a matter of reasoning, not selecting from a menu.

"Obviously no one should try to pass on a map they don't think it is any good." No, they shouldn't, but now you have missed my point. My point is that the map of Middle Earth is suitable for finding the way round a mythical kingdom, and is not necessarily suitable in the real world - even though the person handing it over may think it is.

I was baptized into the Lutheran church as an infant (which I'm sure was more to appease my grandmother than anything else) and that was the last time I was in a church until I begged to go to religion classes at the age of 10. I remember coming home in a panic and asking my father, "Dad, what's the Lord's Prayer? I'm supposed to know it by next week!" Growing up I knew as much about the life of Buddha as I did Jesus. I guess I always knew that my parents vaguely believed in something, but my questions were usually answered with "some people think..." or "that religion believes..." It wasn't until I was much older that I realized they were actually quite religious. I guess what I'm saying by this rambling post is that I agree with UQD that there's nothing actively athiest about raising a child to decide when they're older. My great grandfather died when I was six, and I remember my mother telling me "some people believe that a part of gramps, his soul, has gone someplace else." I asked her if she believed that and she said, "yes I do, but not everyone does." I was always free to believe or not as I chose. (The only time my dad put the kibosh on anything was when I wanted to be a Rastafarian when I wsa 14 or so. He suspected -quite rightly- that I just wanted to smoke pot. ) Now I'm quite actively religious, while my older brother is an athiest. Well, he has occasional twinges of agnosticism, but I think he just takes a few aspirin and lies down 'til it's over. I realize this is all really quite pointless. Apologies!

I entirely agree UQD. I made that point some years ago on Mumsnet, that if you bring your children up without any religious contact at all, and with the assertion that God almost definitely does NOT exist, then you are effectively closing those doors for them.

It's your right to choose how you bring up your child and you could say that I am closing the doors for my child in dictating to her what constitutes decent music and banning all shite from my house! But you cannot say that you are letting them make an informed choice when they are older because you are not.

I've also found that people who have been left to choose, i.e. brought up with different faiths but never forcibly so, have always ended up choosing the path that has been right for them.

Others who are brought up strictly one way or the other tend to change when they are older, but are often plagued with doubt about the choices they've made.

'It's my opinion that it's a useful tool to avoid dealing with life's difficulties and that being taught to rely on god to solve problems constitutes a disablity."'

Perhaps, but there is no useful tool that will help with any of my 'problems' (in specific the ASD of two of my children, the suspected ADHD of one aotehr and my DH's meatal health issues). I asked the GP about Counselling, he offered a ddday I couldnt get childcare and told me it was a waste as the fact I was sane at all was pretty good LOL (the situation with dh was much worse then- he's been in remission for a while now).

So if religion is a crutch that gets me through each day- why not? Science couldn't offer me anything as effective, pilosophy doesn't either. My faith means I get up, cope, find reasons to do good and not just sit still thinking why me. Other, stronger people may not need that but I do.

I agree, Peachy. I had horrible depression when I was pregnant, from the time I entered my third trimester until he was a few months old. The only thing that helped at all was prayer. (That's actually why we named him Samuel- "God has heard") When I worked in a childcare center, we lost one of our LOs to a brain tumor. His parents are religious and fervently believe that they will see him again. It is what allowed them to go on, I think, and what's wrong with that? If they're wrong (and as a religious person I don't think they are), they won't know, and it will have made the rest of their lives bearable. There's the old saw about religion being a good tool in the hands of good people and a bad tool in the hands of bad people, and I think that it's true.

Interesting discussion still going on.

I feel precisely the opposite in terms of god helping me through difficult times tbh - in a fairly short space of time, I lost a close friend to a brain tumour (leaving behind two v young children), had two more friends in their 30s diagnosed with cancer (one who was then able to have children because of it) and then lost 3 IVF-conceived babies to m/c. I never once considered turning to religion to help as my only conclusion would have been, had I believed in god, that he was a complete and utter bastard. Otherwise why would these things have happened?

Just my opinion of course, and I understand others get comfort from the thought that people who die have gone to a better place, but a few hours after my friend died a mutual friend of ours (and a committed Christian) said to me "she has gone to a better place". It took every shred of willpower I had not to punch her . My friend who died was an atheist btw.

unable to have children

onagar - I loathe that prayer and totally agree with you - some things in Christianity must seem damn right scary to children - btu thats why I like the CHildren's versions of the Bible - it is less barbaric!

And children find religion difficult to handle - my DS1 still think it is ACTUALLY Jesus on the cross that he sees in church....

I have taught RE and I have seen first hand how children are very much the product of what they hear at home. I have had parents at parents eve tell me they don't want their child brainwashed in my lessons......this was at a non-denominational and therefore non religious school - so there are some parents who just cannot cope with a viewpoint other than their own.

Having followed this thread as best I can (notwithstanding the bits I have missed due to "life" getting in the way!) I don't think the OP is one of these such parents. She is trying to get her head round an awkward situation....her only crime possibly is that she didn't word her original post in a way that was endearing to someone (like myself) who is sick of non religious parents trying to water down faith school sbecause it doesn't suit their sensitivities

I may have misunderstood the map example (as it seems I have misunderstood alot on this thread!!!) but have any of you seen the Beach? As in Leonardo DiCaprio etc etc....well its like the map in that story for the perfect beach is somehow somethign so wonderful and precious- how could you NOT share it - even though you know that it may not exist - if it does its the most perfect and wonderful thing and frankly is worth takin gthe chance that you look stupid. I feel my faith in God is like that. I feel I have discovered something so great and so wonderful that I feel I have to share it with my children - by taking them to church and baptising them etc

In "The Beach" - LDiC realises in the end that the paradise isn't "all that" and it could be that my children will decide Christianity "isn't all that" - but the point is I have to share the map with them and let them share the journey with me until such a time when they decide that actually I'm wrong.

I guess OP you may feel similarly in that you feel you have the "answer" and of course you want to share that with your children and you want to take them on the journey with you. I get that - and I apologise if earlier posts (when I wasn't really "getting" what you were moaning about) didn't reflect that

nomore, alot of non-religious parents such as myself don't want faith (state) schools watered down - we want them abolished.

spongebrain - I would like to see many many fewer CofE schools (refer to an earlier post of mine - there are 3 local primary school in the town by me and ALL 3 of them are CofE) but I would still like my Catholic children to attend a Catholic school...not least because things like the Lord's Prayer are slightly different and I like the fact that Our Lady is prominant at school etc

I don't have any problem with faith schools as long as they are not funded by the state.

SO because I am Catholic I should have to pay for my children's education?!!