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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

934 replies

GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 08:45

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

OP posts:
giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 12:52

yes georgimama it is - I was just being a bit flippant and using it to show that dcs can take any story in and its quite easy for them to understand...

georgimama · 30/03/2009 12:53

Apparently a common view

MillyR · 30/03/2009 12:54

I'm not sure that it makes that much difference that it is a C of E school. My children go to a secular primary, and they still have to participate in the daily act of collective worship that is Christian in nature, because all schools have to do that, unless most children in the school are of a different religion. That includes church readings, prayers in school and carol concerts etc. My friend teaches in a C of E school, but most of the children are Muslims, so the collective worship is Muslim.

I would expect that in a C of E school, just like a secular school, you can withdraw your child from collective worship, but often you can't pick and choose. If you withdraw from prayer, then you also withdraw from christmas celebrations.

How far away is the nearest secular school in your LEA? It might be worth moving your child if the school is too religious. Lots of children do travel for reasons of religion. Catholic children here travel nearly 10 miles to Primary.

giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 12:54

its also an allegory for capitalism as well...

salome64 · 30/03/2009 12:57

Reminds me that my Grandmother (and many others) who refused to allow either religion or politics to be discussed at the table. Would she have allowed Star Wars, I wonder?

MillyR · 30/03/2009 12:58

Star Wars was based on a book called the Hero with a Thousand Faces. It is by an anthropologist called Campbell and argues, by breaking down the structure of myths into their components, that the myths of all cultures from the smallest tribe to the biggest society are all essentially the same story.

giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 13:01

Interesting Milly - thanks.

Does this mean that atheists cant watch it though?

Sorry GL I didnt mean for this to stray off the topic.

Peachy · 30/03/2009 13:02

Although millie IIRC if your nearest faith schoolthat your kids 'need' is a distance away transport can be provided, not so with non faith schools (should be though, If I expect people to accept (not share) my beliefs I must do likewise)so it could beeasier to manage logistically

I got a massive verbalearbashing over that belief once from a rel;igious person who knew about world faiths because her dh 'read some books and told me all abouth tem'- pmsl (have deleted her religion as I think its not relevant- prats in all systems)

FWIW GL I do sympathise with how you feel as my ds3 is asd and doesn't have the ability to interpret what he is taught; I feel very unconfy that he be effectively forced into faith (fortunately the SNU he moves to soon is not a faith school)

pingping · 30/03/2009 13:04

YABU!!!

salome64 · 30/03/2009 13:04

May I say what an interesting thread? And nice we have managed to discuss it without beating each other over the head with our differing points?

salome64 · 30/03/2009 13:05

maybe I spoke too soon (sigh...)

MillyR · 30/03/2009 13:08

I think you can have myths without gods in them, surely? You could still have myths about things that have happened in the past that had no supernatural content. So I don't think Star Wars is meant to appeal to religious people more than non religious. The point of the Campbell thing is that it is meant to appeal to everyone and remind them of other stores they know and are meaningful to them.

MamaHobgoblin · 30/03/2009 13:09

Haven't got time to read all the posts, but here's my two pence:

I am also a sort-of atheist (who attends Quaker Meeting sometimes, but that's another matter, and there are loads of atheist attenders at Meeting! ) and I don't want my own DS to get too involved with religious ceremony. We aren't having him christened, because we don't believe in it and would feel frauds, in spite of MIL's desires and beliefs. To believers, being baptised is a sacrement, and I wouldn't want to mock that by going through the motions. We didn't get married in a church for much the same reasons. (Ditto MIL's disappointment!) DS will be able to make his own mind up when he's old enough, and part of this will be letting him dip his toes into religious services if he wants to.

But as for the OP - I do think you may be over-reacting. I appreciate that there are no non-religious local schools, but given that he's at this one, he's getting a fair amount of religion on a day-to-day basis, what with assembly, RE, etc. I would imagine he's probably dead chuffed to be doing a reading. It'll be over fast and it'll boost his self-esteem. To take him out of this means possibly humiliating him in front of his friends, and deliberately excluding him. If it were me, with my beliefs I outlined above, I'd let him do it, and perhaps have a talk with him about how he might feel and what I might think. Is there a secular message you can extract from his reading, perhaps?

justaboutback · 30/03/2009 13:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

PurpleCrazyHorse · 30/03/2009 13:12

Errr.. seems quite straightforward, pop in and have a chat with the teacher, is there something else he could do or ask him to sit out?

However, YAB alittle U as clearly you knew this was your only school option as I think you said you've been living in the area for a while. Therefore you chose this community and the school situation within it.

I'm sure the school can help your DS be involved without participating in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable. But they're not going to know this if you don't speak to them. I would guess it's natural for them to assume that all parents who send kids to a faith school would be happy for them to do a faith reading (hence not asking specific permission). You might have to compromise too if you want your DS to be involved as I expect it might be difficult if you don't want him doing Christmas/Easter related things etc.

giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 13:15

So in order to enjoy Star Wars - for it to work properly, everyone has to teach their child the religious stories? Oh dear have failed there as Star Wars has come first - unlike my own childhood which was very Christian.

I wonder if my ds experiences it differently - or are you saying that these myths are inherent and not culture-based?

Is there a case that by not having an overarching religious culture anymore we are losing some sort of shared humanity then?

salome64 · 30/03/2009 13:15

Its a bit like language. All babies have the innate language tools to build any language which has form and meaning. As Just says, their seem to be 'embedded' story structures that are universally meaningful for all humanity, and the stories of religion exemplify that.

salome64 · 30/03/2009 13:16

"there seems" eek! so much for my language.

salome64 · 30/03/2009 13:17

Rather than having one overarching religious culture, we have diverse cultures that come from the same foundation. I think we gain from that if we can encompass it intellectually and emotionally.

Cathpot · 30/03/2009 13:18

I was very relieved to hear last week that DD1 has got into the one secular school in our area, precisely because as I started to think about it more, I realised just how uncomfortable I was going to be with the sorts of activties the OP is describing (our local C of E does a mock wedding in a local church for instance.) It is to do with core beliefs- to have my child stand up and declare a belief in god would make me very uncomfortable, not least as she is not old enough to decide what she belives yet.

Could those of you who are Christian and objecting to the OP take a moment and think about if the only state education available to your child was 'atheist' education.

The imagine that an accepted part of this atheist education involved your child having to stand in an assembly and outline the rationale behind the idea that there is no god. Celebrate the fact there is no god and sing a song about the fact there is no god. In the long term it might not affect their world view on religion, but it would probably not sit well with you.

I would not want my child to go to this school either, I want my child to learn about the world and make her own mind up.

MillyR · 30/03/2009 13:19

GKS

I don't think it matters which stories you have heard first! You could have watched Star Wars and then read King Arthur, and see the similarities. It is about universal storytelling, like Jungian archetypes. It isn't an allegory to 1 specific cultural story.

giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 13:19

But we dont have that do we - GL has said that she doesnt know the stories - ie the cultural side of christianity.

MillyR · 30/03/2009 13:21

Sorry, I have missed that from the thread. Is OP saying her child does not know the nativity story?

MelanieLiv · 30/03/2009 13:24

GooseyLoosey - I was went to a village CofE first school, where I participated in nativity plays, composed prayers & did readings in church. My parents never commented, negatively or otherwise on the content of the religion stuff at school. I managed to work out for myself that I was an atheist by about age 10. Whether this down to my disposition, the lack of religion practised by my parents or just common sense I don't know. However I think it is likely that in order to grow up a believer (in any faith) a child really needs to be indoctrinated by parents as well as their society from a pretty young age.

giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 13:27

Agree MelanieLiv - what happens at home is the most important thing. Interstingly my ds is much more interested about whether or not I believe in aliens, he's 5, so they are obviously aware that people believe different things and that there are choices to be made.

MillyR - GL was saying that she didnt know what to tell her dc about Easter etc.