To expect our parents to BUTT OUT??!!

[LavenderStar]

DP is Jewish but I am not. It has never been a problem, he was brought up in the faith but it isn't a big part of his life now, although he doesn't eat pork or shellfish. His parents are more religious, don't mix meat and milk, go to synagogue etc. but don't have any problem with the way he chooses to live his life now or with me.

Anyway I am 25 weeks and if we have a boy we decided to have him circumcised. It was never a big discussion between us, I actually prefer it (I think it looks nicer and somehow it seems more hygenic) and DP I think wants to do it more as a traditional thing than anything else and obviously every other man in his family has had it done. I think his parents might go so far as to get upset if we didn't although I don't know. But frankly it is nothing to do with his parents.

Anyway so my mother phones up today even though she knows we are going on holiday tomorrow and have a million and one things to do at home and at work, and I told my dad I would speak to her when I got back. Obviously though what she wanted to do was more important and she told me that she was phoning as something had been "bothering" her. She thinks circumcision is "an unecessary procedure" (to put a baby/child under anesthetic) and potentially dangerous (eg they could cut too much off). I actually don't know much about it but we would have it done in a hospital and I am sure it would be fine in this day and age. I am not sure what it has got to do with her anyway.

My parents don't have a religion and have always been very supportive of whatever I have wanted to do in life. I am not sure if she has started interfering now because I am pregnant or because it is actually something we need to consider more thoroughly. What does everyone think?

Also now I just think it will cause a problem between the families whatever we decide to do and everyone has always got on really well. I don't know why parents think they have the right to shove their opinions down our throat, it makes me really angry. DP's mother is already slightly neurotic and we already have to "manage" her, so I could really do without this, I feel like telling them BOTH to f* off!!

Or is it just my hormones?

The foreskin no longer exists in it's true form...seriously it looks like his has polo neck penis...kinda cute actually

LEMAGAIN - why would you be [hmm} about the desert thing?

The ancient civilisations which circumcise were originally (when the Torah, and later the Koran, was being written) desert-dwellers. The Middle East (v sandy!) is known as the 'cradle of civilisation' because Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all orginated there. And under the foreskin could lead to much nastiness in terms of infections - removing it was very wise. Then.

Same thing with the dietary laws - Jews don't eat shellfish and pork - when the laws were 'written' (i.e. when these practises evolved and were recorded) these were some of the animals most likely to give you gyppy tummy/kill you if you didn't store or cook them properly (they still are of course). Good idea to ban them.

Obviously it was also given religious symbolism - but many religious practices or taboos have 'common sense' reasons behind them as well as a layer of symbolism.

God also commanded Abraham to kill his son, Isaac, but you don't see any Jews killing their firstborn sons.

(As an agnostic, am I allowed to say when you read The Bible, it's easy to come away with the impression that 'God moves in mysterious ways' is code for 'he's a right bugger sometimes'?)

YANBU.

I'll admit to feeling the same way at times.

MrsMattie: I don;t care what crap people believe in, but if they chop bits off their children for superstitious reasons, then they are stupid, cruel and bad.

edam

Hi you have said that you don't know much about it - watch this.

Make up your own mind.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6584757516627632617

I am not Jewish, nor is any member of my family. DS1 was circumsised at about 6 years old for purely medical reasons. However, I can say, with utmost honesty, that I would NEVER have considered it for him if the consultant had not explained in great detail about what difficulties he would experience without the operation. It is one of the hardest decosions we ever had to make for either of our sons. In fact, DH was extremely distressed to think we would have to put him through it. Everything went well, but it was very painful for him and I remember clearly that he couldn't wear pants or trousers for about a week afterwards and needed painkillers for slightly longer. Imagine the pain and discomfort for a baby wearing a nappy, the burning everytime he urinates, the rubbing against the nappy etc etc.

So, no, I don't think that you should put your baby through this without really good medical reasons, and definitely not for purely aesthetic/hygiene reasons.

"This is hurtful and not constructive."

Not, I think as hurtful as having a sensitive part of your body cut off.

My DH is circumsised and whilst he loves his parents he does harbour quite a bit of resentment over this and it does colour his view of them a bit TBH.

IMO you have no right to remove part of someone else's body without a medical need. None, no religious/cultural reason in anyway makes this acceptable. It is vile and cruel and just as wrong as female circumcision.

I hope I sound aggressive about this, I think cutting off parts of babies is WRONG and any doctor who does so without a valid medical reason needs to lose their license and go to jail along with any parent who deliberately allows it to happen.

Don't give a shit if this makes me intolerant or not, cutting babies is WRONG. It may be the parent's choice, but it should NOT be.

Totally agree with Morloth. If an adult wants to cut bits off him or herself he/she is perfectly entitled. To do this to a baby/child is assault/abuse/exploitation and WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Winston Churchill once said something along the lines of "The world is a dangerous place not because there are people willing to do bad to others, but because there are people who know about this and DO NOTHING".

I for one will ALWAYS stand up for a child who is being abused/exploited/assaulted by it's parents or anyone else.

Giving it a medical term and saying it is being done in the name of religion does not make any difference. It is an unecessary procedure, it is not being done for the benefit of the child but for the benenfit of it's misguided and weak parents.

I had to leave this thread earlier as I mistakenly looked at the video linked by kitkatqueen. It made me sick. Literally. It is one thing to do this procedure under proper anaesthetic for genuine medical reasons, but to do that to a baby for no good reason, just because they happen to be born into a particular religion, is downright cruel. There is no doubt in my mind that under those circumstances, it is nothing more or less than mutilation of a child. If any one was subjected to that treatment in other, ie: not religious, circumstances, we would all, quite rightly be demanding social services involvement and prosecution of the perpetrators. It is sick! And I speak as someone whose child underwent this for medical reasons on the NHS.

I have just seen the video as well. It nearly made me cry.

Can anyone tell me if this is how a standard circumcision for religious reasons would be done?

Not quite. They're usually a little quicker than that, certainly with a bris, but as a rule no anaesthetic is used, as in that video, and they use a different method.

Thanks

And usually during a brit milah(Jewish circumcision ceremony) the Sandek(usually a very important male, Grandfather perhaps) holds the baby while the circumcision is done.
Though I have seen the baby be strapped to a board and the Sandek holding the board.

I've only been to a relatively few bris though.

Strapped to a board? My god, that makes me feel physically sick.

Is that happening in this country? How is it allowed to continue?

Truthfully being strapped to board, while unpleasant for the baby, seems like nothing in comparison to the procedure its'self.

I have a son. If anyone tried to do that to him I would not be responsible for what I did to them.

It should be banned. Barbaric. How can people watch?

Sorry the video was upsetting - unfortunatly I believe in the saying that " people whose opinions are changed against their will, will remain of their opinion still".

As much as it is important for the op to see the opinions of other mumsnetters (whose opinions she must respect to a degree or she wouldn't have asked). Our opinions will not necessarily change hers.

The only thing that can truly change opinion is fact.

The circumstances of circumcision may vary, but the bottom line is the same. I know of children who have had the procedure for medical reasons and it is unfortunate, but a necessity. With or without anasthetic there will be residual pain.

After I had my 1st baby I refused to pee without pouring water on myself because of the burning pain caused by my own wee in the grazes caused when I gave birth. A baby with a nappy on will not have that option.

I opened this post orignally thinking bloody interfering parents again, but I am more concerned now that the op will now be totally torn.

Personally I hate my parents being right about anything , but there are times when I have to grudgingly change my point of view. It is galling, but it does happen from time to time.

OP, Make your descision based on the evidence and on facts. Look into in lots of information - don't take my word for anything. Become an expert. Talk to your husband. Decide for yourself.

To anyone who was upset by the video - I am truly sorry, but it is the fact of this discussion, > to everyone who now feels sick, if its any consolation - I do too.

BARBARIC
unless for medical reasons

The video is horrific. How that father could listen to his son scream and not do anything is beyond me. The poor baby was in so much distress that he was choking on his saliva.