to think Delia is a bit of a tosser for saying' I am not a feminist - I like men'

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

Stick to the cooking theres a dear

it is interesting though. you are quite happily promoting choice, which is all any 'feminist' has ever asked for. i am just still quite shocked that the concept seems so far away to you - i'm only 38, and yet as far as you are concerned this is something that was relevant 40 years ago, before i was born, not during my working life...

As ever, I can only be honest .

As for quoting statistics about women in top jobs, I have to say I'm quite skeptical about this ... We can't alter biology. Women have children. Women breastfeed. Men and women are different biologically -our brains and personalities vary (and I'm talking on a population-wide basis). Many many women will choose to have families, and lots find this changes their priorities more, perhaps that their husbands & partners. If this causes women to lose interest in racing to the top of companies and other organisations, then why is this a bad thing? Being an MP sounds fascinating, but to be a good MP I'd need to do many things that are completely incompatible with my desires for my family life. I am sure I'm not the only woman to conclude this. Yes, jobs should be family-friendly etc, but I can't possibly expect to do some high-flying job if I only want to work 2-8 hours a week at the moment, can I? Of course women who choose to work fulltime or more hours than this, then fine, great, good for them they should have every opportunity whether they have children or not. But why does it surprise us that many women choose to put mothering first? Women aren't men and never will be. If women are more biologically driven and fundamentally (in a physiological sense) carry a greater burden in the child-bearing and early childhood years then why would we expect to see 50:50 splits in every job role?

Completely aside from women being saner than men and less likely to undertake risky jobs like deep sea diving

The dismissal during pregnancy figures are depressing .

I don't think you really 'get' me any more than I 'get' feminism, to be honest.

I find it depressing that people will argue that there are no differences between men and women. Women wield enormous power in our society, they don't have to hold 50% of all jobs to do this. To see all power as heirarchical is to seriously underestimate the power of other means of influencing. I don't see society as male-dominated, no. As in, I don't think that just because there are more men in top jobs this means women have less influence. They just exert it in different and more cunning ways . I genuinely do believe that lots of women make valid choices to focus on family more than career and feel they shouldn't be judged by "feminists" for doing this.

If others feel they are missing out and there's a battle to be fought then on you go .

I'm giving up now, as I'm going out .

Sorry, my previous post was a reply to dittany.

sprogger -no thanks, I'm just fine working freelance in the public sector and raising my children .

Absoutely Grendle, younger women today just do not identify with the rhetoric of victimhood that is common from feminists of a certain age. And when they are faced with a woman who asserts that they are wrong - that their expereinces are wrong and that they cannot trust their own wits on this - they naturally go away at best thinking such women are a bit nuts and at worse thinking feminism is a joke.

Sexist men do exist of course, just as racist people do and bigots of all shapes and sizes. Feminism, or anything else can't stop idiots from being idiots. But to keep asserting that our society is sexist, when when the women coming of age in in do not recognoise it as such, and in the face of so much that feminism has achieved in the last 30 years, is a bit of an insult to feminism really. But it seems to be the nature of feminism to focus on the negatives and totally bypass all the positives. Which, again, doesn't make it an attractive option for most young women. Who on earth would want to identify themselves with a movement that keeps announcing it's crises and failures?

This couples with the fact that we don;t have to go far to see examples of truely misogynous and sexist societies.

Our society might not be perfect - and never will be - some things can still be improved upon, but we actually enjoy more agency, freedom of movement, reproductive choice with an assurance of basic universal human rights. These are provledges that our ancestors, male or female, could never have dreampt of. We really do have a lot to be posoitove about, while still looking for improvement on certain issues.

Grendle, have you read this short book? I think you would like it www.amazon.co.uk/Divided-Labours-Evolutionary-Women-Darwinism/dp/0300080263/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=bo oks&qid=1237926960&sr=1-15

Interesting thread.

IME you don't even need to be in a high flying post to experience difficulties at work. I worked part-time after having my first DS and when I got pg again with DS2 was made redundant due to a re-structure.

Nothing too strange in that but it just so happened that ALL the women in my team who were part-time also got made redundant. In addition, one of the people who retained their role was not fully trained (by a long shot!). However that was ok as they were full time...

The whole thing didn't really bother me too much, I will get another job (hopefully!) but it really hit hard one of the women in my team who was fully trained, had worked there for almost 10 years and had only just gone part-time a month previously. I believe she is taking legal action tho.

The thing is, Grendel - not all women have, or want to have children. And of those that do, not all want to stay indoors doing nothing but cupcake-baking, fingerpainting and floormopping while the children are small. And even those who do want to stay out of the paid-work environment while the children are small don't see those few years as the defining ones of their lives.
Yet women are still defined by the fact that they mostly have the capability to become pregnant and bear children (all the endless guff about prohibiting pregnant women from doing things is all about controlling women, not about public health).
Just think for a minute: it's not that difficult to damage the sperm production process in the testes, or indeed to affect the motility and viability of sperm. Drinking, drug-taking, smoking, tight trousers and contact sports can all damage a man's fertility, yet anyone suggesting that men's capacity to father children is important and they shouldn't be allowed to put it at risk would be laughed out of court.

"Yet women are still defined by the fact that they mostly have the capability to become pregnant and bear children "

But what is wrong with that SGS? We aren't soley defined by this anymore. Capitlaism couldn't survive without the female workforce or the female market.

Male parental responsiblity is very much talked about these days, as is lifestyle choices harming mens fertility. I just read a story about it in DP's fitness mag! That's a bit of a straw man to be honest. We don;t live in the 50s anymore.

I am not surprised Grendle has had a relatively positive experience working in the public sector - public bodies have to abide by discrimination regs to the letter.

I have worked in Local Govt and have foundd the conditions to be generally fair - but as my field was relatively male dominated I did encounter 'old fashioned' attitudes mainly benign, fatherly, paternalistic, patronising and very irritating nonetheless.

I still consider feminism to be relevant to me though as the scads of anti-discriminatory regs are testimony to the efforts of women before me. There is plenty still to be done for women and men.

The statistics about women having real economic clout are telling.

You might think this discussion is irrelevant Grendle, but you are being naive in the extreme. It is relevant, it is happening and it is happening now while you and YOU personally are sleepwalking.

Glados: Capitalism couldn't survive without women's unpaid labour. Community care, social responsiblity, 'supporting the instituation of marriage' these are all euphemisms for women's unpaid labour.

I think that gender issues only become really apparent as you get older tbh. When every gal your age has given up their careers to find fulfilment in face-painting. It is probably different in the public sector though.

"The statistics about women having real economic clout are telling."

Again, focusing on the negative only? Does that mean women have no other clout, or that that clout is meaninbgless becasue it's women's clout?

It seems to me we are pretty much so culturally programmed by feminism to think we are wretched, we have a hard time thinking positivly about anything we do. Especially being mothers.

SGS, I'm wouldn't challenge that. I have posted about that on thos very thread. It still does not discount that the female imput in the the workforce and thir market share on the high street is huge and is a fixed element of capitalism.

Anyway, my fixed time on MN is over. It will have to wait till tomorrow now.

There is a programme just starting on Radio 4 called "Call yourself a Feminist?"

or possibly "Call yourself a Feminist!"

I read loads of Faludi when studying feminism in the early 90's as part of my politics degree - She really opened my eyes to the subtle (and not so) misogyny expressed in the media, films,(I wrote an essay on Fatal Attraction') in all aspects of society. It was strong stuff for me in my dungarees...

Blithe - That's funny and clever! You must be a man ...

Well you never know on R4. Quattro - how could you? I am a wumun to the core .

Rampant feminist and Fawcett member here checking in, my firs husband said one of he reasons he divorced me was my reading of feminist literature in bed.

You are right men and women are biologically different, I have breasts and a vagina and he has a penis. So I gave birth and breastfed and he can pee standing up. That is it. Because I am a woman I do not have to stop at home with dd. I did for five years because I wanted to. I then met a man who was not as career focussed as me so I went out to work and he is a home. As far as I know his penis or lack of breasts and vagina was not involved in that decision.