to think that men should not expect their wives/partners to remain the 'sex kittens' they once were after having children

[Toppy]

I read this article Where did my sex kitten go? today in the Sunday Times on the tube whilst having a rare toddler free 'me day' courtesy of my DH. (Weirdly it is listed under Women online but was in the Men's Special Style section today)

My jaw just dropped open and hung there for the duration of the article then I sat in shock as I took his opinions in.
AIBU in my utter disgust at this man or have I become so like the woman he wrote about that I am unable to appreciate his point of view?
My gut instinct a year on from having my first child (and putting my career on serious pause) is to think he is an utter t**t but a tiny part of me wondered if all DHs secretly wonder where their 'sex kitten' has gone (not that I ever was one) even if they were up for having kids in the first place.

Since having my DS I have let myself get fat, don't have the libido I once had and am indeed pretty wrapped up in my 1 year old but I would like to pray that this would not force DH to go out and have an affair !
Is Simon Jones' article food for thought or is the author a prize ** ?

(sorry for the asterisks - I am so wound up by this article though)

Agree with ABetaDad and Spero - exempting PND or other crap circumstances. I told a hairdresser today that I could spend much time on my hair because I have three small children but pointed out I am a wife as well as a mother so wanted something sassy not just easy. DH bought some Agent Provocateur vouchers for Christmas and looking forward to going shopping with him - if we can get a babysitter!!! I adore my children and am a SAHM but am still the woman I was before in attitude - just a little more tired and a lot more saggy.

thumbwitch, i am genuinely sorry for offending you, but equally you jumped right in and made assumptions about my circumstances which just weren't true.

This is an anonymous internet forum where we are swopping views and experiences. I can't know what you went thru unless you tell me.

I think we are coming at this from very different angles. I honestly don't see how a baby per se can be such a destructive force, particularly in the circs as described in the article - one baby, quite well off couple.

both of them seemed very self indulgent.

I think it's totally different to leave a baby who you cannot stop from crying, as opposed to leaving a baby who would immediately stop crying if you went and picked it up. Also, I suspect that crying while someone is trying to help you is probably less harmful than crying while someone ignores you in order to wash up. That's just my opinion, though. I don't say that you are necessarily causing harm to a baby by leaving it to cry for ten minutes, I'm just saying that I absolutely could not have done that.

As it goes, there are plenty of studies that show that leaving a baby to cry alone does it no good but I really can't be arsed to google, sorry!

spero - I can't be arsed to argue with someone who dismisses my POV as nonsense. It's a pathetic argument.

sorry you feel that way spicemonster. But I don't accept it is 'pathetic' to come to a view based on thought and experience. I am interested in why people think i'm wrong, and people have made some interesting points which are food for thought.

But i suspect I will always remain of the view that refusing to put a baby down because the baby will cry is... dare I say it... nonsense and responsible for a lot of unhappiness in relationships and for individual mothers.

I agree with Spero to a point. Baby's needs cannot always come first, especially if you have two or more children.

It's inevitable that at some point baby will be left to cry while you, get washed and dressed, get others dressed, wipe bottoms, make family dinner, do the school run etc.

Isn't that how it's always been?

But I do remember thinking as a first time mother that thre was NO WAY I could cook dinner for him because didn't he realise I HAD JUST HAD A BABY?

It makes me laugh now as I accomplish far more throughout the day with two under 5 than I ever did with 1 baby.

(Mind you no.3 is on the way so maybe will not feel so smug come July)

Sorry horton, I'm not talking about lengthy periods, as I agree with you that there are serious implications if you leave a child for a long time - look at impact on brain development in Romanian orphanages for eg.

But for ten minutes???? Come on!!

Ten minutes is a really long time for a baby. I only have one child so I don't know how I'd manage with more than one but I do think leaving a small (under six months or so) baby to cry for ten minutes is something that I absolutely could not do.

thumbwitch - I think Spero is only arguing for some balance.

I too am fairly irritated by the attitude of some MN posts (not just on this thread) that seem to suggest the man has absolutey no right to expect anything at all from he relationship once the baby has come along and if he dares to ask for anything he is being a wingeing child.

I did not agree with virtually any of the sentiments expressed in the original Times article but I equally think there are some very extreme view expressed by women on here in the other direction.

Achieving balance in life is really all to the good for all concerned - including the baby. I do not think a baby should be trained to cry and expect you to be there the instant it opens its mouth. Equally, I do not think a man should expect his DW/DP to be there for him just like it was before the baby came along.

There have of course been lots of very balanced posting on here from both men and women on this thread and I have enjoyed reading the debate. I cannot believe it has gone on so long.

Spero - the only assumption I made was based on what you had said, tbf. I grant you that you couldn't have known my circs, but that goes for lots of others who have other troubles too - and who were also missed off your list of exemptions.
Let us agree to leave this now - I am sorry for leaping to conclusions, you are sorry for offending. That should be the end.

I suspect that some women find the instinct to nurture their child first and foremost does take over - I had no intention of co-sleeping with DS before he was born, but it just happened to be the best way for us.

FWIW I was very lucky to be back at pre-pg wt 2 weeks after DS was born as well - and DH has always supported me in doing my job as a mum.

I for one could have potentially caused DS harm by leaving him to cry as his hernia could have become trapped (wrong word, can't think of the right one at this point), causing bowel blockage - but that is starting to argue with you again and I have said I would like it to end now - we can respect each other's experiences and POVs and move on.

I can't of course argue that you shouldn't feel what you feel. But I would be interested to know how you come to the conclusion that ten minutes is a really long time for a baby, the implication being that being left for this time is harming the baby.

I do think that is a construct you are putting on the situation. I honestly don't think there can possibly be any repercussions for the baby.

But of course, I may be completely wrong and possibly should google. I hope I'm not, as otherwise my daughter's future emotional development is probably hideously compromised as she would get left for periods of 10-15 minutes at least once a day...

sorry, last post was for Horton.

I can't say it any better than Betadad.

I don't want to sound facetious (spelling??) but if we simply accept each others points and move on, this is going to be a very dull forum...

I've been reading this thread for ages and would really like to ask Pruners what she did to improve things with her dh please?!
My dd is 16 months old and my dh sounds just like yours and our marriage is in trouble.

I am almost certainly guilty of being too "engrossed" in my dd, but he has never really taken to the whole fatherhood thing and we have drifted further and further apart. He now says he doesn't love me in the same way any more and I am at a loss as to waht to do.

Sorry this doesn't really fit in with this topic, but I am new to this site and your comments really struck a chord with me!

I think ten minutes is a really long time for a toddler to wait, let alone a baby. I don't know if it's just mine (though on available evidence I suspect not) but my daughter at 2.6 finds waiting for five minutes when she knows why she is waiting really really hard. A baby doesn't know why it is waiting. It just knows it wants its mother or milk or a cuddle or whatever. Maybe it's not doing any harm. I don't know. I just wouldn't want to do that myself. I couldn't. Some people can. I am a big wuss, though.

no, we have had our discussion between the two of us, resolved a few misunderstandings, what more do you want? Others are still discussing with you and other posters.

I also think that emotional involvement (as a reaction to a shockingly self-indulgent piece of immature wank) brings out the more extreme views of posters. And I take leave to doubt that poor Frances was as bad as portrayed - because the writer showed himself to be a selfish arse, so he is bound to colour things to suit his opinion. Of course, she might have been as bad as he suggests but that in itself might have been a reaction to his selfishness.

A good relationship, imo, is based on love and respect for the other person through good times and bad - and accepting that a baby is going to change the dynamics of a relationship. There are women who have babies and then totally exclude their husbands - but how much of that is due entirely to them, and how much to (as someone else said) them "tuning out" what they see to be selfish unreasonable "me me me" stuff from their partners? Now, if the DP is starting to make demands after a couple of weeks, this would be seen to be generally unreasonable. If after a couple of months, unreasonable to most but not others. At 6m, still unreasonable to many but not to others and so on.

It takes a year for a woman's body to recover from childbirth - some say their brains never do recover fully. A loving supportive partner will understand that, and will work with their wife to achieve a new working solution, not stamp their feet and pout after 6m that their wife has "gone forever".

horton, its difficult because I know a lot of women who feel just like you do, I'm obviously missing that gene and could ignore crying quite easily. If you are a wuss, maybe I am a psychopath!

But from a professional and personal perspective I have seen relationships go down the toilet because of what abetadad described and I just think it is sad.

Parents in other cultures and in previous times seemed to cope without the assumption that 'babies=chaos'.

I agree with riven. Why is it okay to talk about your job all the time, but not about your children?

I count myself very lucky because dd was just as much bowled over by being a father as I was by being a mother. He didn't have any expectations of me with regards to my appearance etc and he would rather I stopped my baby from crying than went to do any grooming on myself!

My dh would love me to be a sex kitten again. I have a 6 yo ds and am 7 months preg too. I often get critiqued for my interest and ability in alternative sex - usually it is more negative. But do I really want to be giving blow jobs when I am getting older? Especially when all i get is a bloody back stratch!!!

I know I can look lovely when I have the time to spend on myself - and I get the compliments from DH too. I'm not the most organised of people, so I suppose I could be accused of 'letting myself go a bit, although I am a normal size 12-14, & try to be trendy without having a bank balance to support the latest trends.

For men to want sex kittens - to me it is degrading/insulting to me as a mother and wife. I enjoy sex and have fun with dh. We've been together for nearly 20 years so must be doing something right! I want to have the right to grow older with him - and he;s no George Clooney either and I dont' complain... My complaints are when he doesn't leave the bin out for its fortnightly collection, or see the dog poo to lift!!!

I think he has a point.

It is very easy to become fixated on all things baby, especially as a new mum. You are presented with a load of issues and routines that are new and as you excitedly engage with all of them you easily forget about your clothes, image etc. I think it's quite possible to look after yourself and the children but it requires a bit more planning after children.

I don't like being thought of first and foremost as a mother. And I often joke about push chairs and how they steal your identity! Once you've slipped into a role like that it can be hard to get out and there is a tendency to forget that you had a life before the child you created came along.

Spero - may I ask what you do in a professional capacity?

If you would rather not say then that's OK, I am just interested as you seem to have broad perspective on this issue.

it sounds like a teenage work of fiction

misogynistic drivel

Spero I have been reading your posts with interest and I agree with more or less all you say.

My dd1 had horrendous colic - she literally cried non stop for six weeks, but I still managed to find time to sort out the house. As for myself, I put on four stone with dd2. It was not massively easy to lose (especially as I was on crutches for several weeks post birth) but I was determined to get my old self back physically. Not for dh, but for me and my self esteem.

I'm not looking for a medal, I just believe that there are ways of having young children that do not necessarily equal chaos and frumpiness.

I think women have to, for the sake of themselves, their partnerships and their children just try to keep a part of their personalities alive after having dcs. I shudder at the thought of giving it all up for the kids and becoming one of those women who has nothing to live for when the children leave home. It doesn't mean that I'm a bad mother, in fact I think I'm a great mum - not perfect but bloody well good enough - and I also feel that I'm setting my dds a good example of how not to turn into a vacuum.

I have to say though, I think the article is written by a total wankstain who would always be somehow dissatisfied by his partner, even if she bounced out of the labour ward looking and behaving like Carmen Electra.

Parents in previous times also coped without the assumption that the woman would be a sex kitten, Spero!

Did they though Horton? Isn't that why wet nurses were employed among the aristocracy - so the 'ladies' could regain their figures quickly and get on and breed more?

i too agree broadly wih spero

I have six children a tidy house and despite my age look 'not bad'

I do have a supportive partner but i need one with this lot! I do have a great relationship with my dp but i work hard at it

my baby is 8 months and I have worked hard to get my figure back

the article is still utter manure