to think that men should not expect their wives/partners to remain the 'sex kittens' they once were after having children

[Toppy]

I read this article Where did my sex kitten go? today in the Sunday Times on the tube whilst having a rare toddler free 'me day' courtesy of my DH. (Weirdly it is listed under Women online but was in the Men's Special Style section today)

My jaw just dropped open and hung there for the duration of the article then I sat in shock as I took his opinions in.
AIBU in my utter disgust at this man or have I become so like the woman he wrote about that I am unable to appreciate his point of view?
My gut instinct a year on from having my first child (and putting my career on serious pause) is to think he is an utter t**t but a tiny part of me wondered if all DHs secretly wonder where their 'sex kitten' has gone (not that I ever was one) even if they were up for having kids in the first place.

Since having my DS I have let myself get fat, don't have the libido I once had and am indeed pretty wrapped up in my 1 year old but I would like to pray that this would not force DH to go out and have an affair !
Is Simon Jones' article food for thought or is the author a prize ** ?

(sorry for the asterisks - I am so wound up by this article though)

I don't know why anyones bothered to be honest. He's just announcing his own failures to the world.

have just read the article.

sad old git isn't he? lucky maria snagging him

I read this article yesterday and reacted much the same as everyone else on here. I particularly liked the bit at the end where he said he was going to put himself first from now on - as opposed to??

I thought the most telling line in the whole article was when he said that women at parties were standing around gossiping about their babies and making no effort to make themselves attractive to men. I thought it showed that he didn't just think that HIS partner owed him some affection/ attention/ sex but that he thought it was the duty of ALL women to put out for men whenever possible, regardless of what they'd prefer to be doing. Arse.

I agree with some of the posters here that, within individual relationships, it's important to try and meet each others' needs, but I don't think that was what this guy meant.....

btw - there was another article in the same magazine about a man who had a vasectomy reversal so that he could have a child with the woman he loved. They had to go through IVF in the end - which was extremely hard for her - and the guy was just so full of love and admiration for his wife at going through all that for him. It restored my faith in men........

I do know someone who - some years ago - could have written that article. He said that "women change" when they have had children and that the relationship is ruined.

I do think that if a man finds himself in that situation more than once then he needs to look for the common denominator.

I would imagine it more than likely that the women in question focused on their babies to the exclusion of everything else because everything else - ie him - was rather unpleasant to them. Calling them fat, bemoaning their lack of conversation, endless pestering for sex etc. No wonder they - perhaps subconsciously, perhaps not - decided to tune out the selfish male child-man in their house who made them feel worthless, and concentrate instead on the bundle of love and joy who made them feel like the wonderful women they are.

I once read a very old quote from I don't know whom, which went something like: "the trouble with marriage is that young women spend their time making nets, not cages." I somehow feel that this writer might agree.

Having actually read the article, not only does he sound like a selfish tosser, I see he also evades any personal responsibility and also whines on about his daughter not liking him.

Well, goodness gracious, I wonder why that might be? Why do you think Simon? Any idea at all, hmmm?

Perhaps a smidgeon of self awareness might somehow penetrate that egotistical pea-brain of his...

i wonder if people like him renounce their shallow, sexist pathetic lives on their deathbeds or not? seems strange to me that anyone could go through life in such a mercenary fashion and never have a pang of conscience

it's about appreciating each other and trying to see the others point of view...tbh the man sounds like a wankstain...DH had a whole new respect for me and my body after I gave birth...and I saw what a fantastic dad he was
we had our moments but we respected each other in a whole new way and making time to be together is also very important

Message withdrawn

Better ask them! I think they are polite about it...

Sorry to return, banging on about the same old point, but I'm not sure it has been answered??

I am genuinely interested as to why it seems to be the majority view that babies are 'all consuming' for the first six months at least and that 'babies=chaos'.

I just don't get it and i think it is quite a harmful view to hold. i was absolutely terrified before my daughter was born as loads of people made dire prognostications about how my life would never be the same again, I 'd never get the chance to tidy up or wash my hair...

Er. No. I got quite a pleasant surprise. Of course having a baby changes your life but it doesn't necessarily usher in a swirling vortex of domestic choas and inability to change your clothes. Why on earth should it??

Unless of course (as I've said) you are depressed or have an abusive partner.

Spero - do you want the honest answer? I wasn't prepared to let my baby cry while I did the cleaning or had a shower or did something which seems really pretty unimportant compared to his happiness. I suspect a lot of women feel the same way. I also don't have a child who has ever slept for 5 hours a day.

I thought the fact that the man who wrote that article appeared unable to tell his partner that he didn't want a child much more pathetic than her ability to have done her hair when he got home from work. That's such an old-fashioned (and frankly sexist) view of the world.

I imagine spero that a lot of people aren't answering your point because you seem to have no concept of what others' experiences could be like, i.e. no empathy at all - you appear to be basing your ideas purely on your own (rather lucky) experience.

I am glad for you that you have had such a pleasant time of it but don't presume to look down on others (yes, that is what you sound like you are doing) when you have no concept of what it is like for them.

Sorry to give impression that I am looking down on people, I honestly don't think I do. I base my views not only on my own experiences, but the experiences of many other mothers I've known, some as very good friends, some as just acquaintances.

And I think that it is just nonsense to say that you won't put a baby down for even five minutes.

Thumbwitch - its a bit of a leap for you say I had such a pleasant time - actually i didn't at all due to my ex offering no emotional support at all. I am now a single parent.

But I would have had a much worse time of it if I had stopped looking after myself or the house, and so I suspect would my baby.

I don't think my lack of empathy explains why I just don't get it. Perhaps you could enlighten me in a more constructive way??

I can see both sides of the debate here TBH. Having dd (infact becoming og unexpectedly) was a huge lifechanging shock for me in an emotional sense which is why i fiercely clung on to my identity, felt like an alein at baby groups, couldn't adapt, not to her but to the cultural expectations of motherhood, and now i know i can still be myself and it doesn't make me a bad mother I feel a lot more relaxed about the whole thing.

dd was hard in the early days, she had all day colic, i hated bf she refused a bottle, I developed post natal OCD/anxiety, was difficult. But just remembering the comments and the sneers/scoffs when i mentioned when pg from mums who already had dcs when i said I wanted to keep up with a regular yoga class, go for the odd night out/away. I can see their horrible sanctimonious faces now, makes me quite . In the lsat 2 years i've changed jobs, done a postgradcertificate nearlt finished a post grad diploma to become a CBT therapist, I've trained to be a childrens yoga teacher and am planning on doing more courses aroud yoga when on mat leave with number 2 due in Sept.

My house is clean and tidy(ish) and I often socilaise with friends. Having dd has made be more motivated and focussed because it's made me more organised, far from the inevitable chaos I was told would descend by all the soothsayers.

just awaiting all the "oh you won't know what's hit you when you've got 2 comments now"

I didn't meet DP till I was 36 so he missed the sex kitten stage...

He's only ever known the Bagpuss version

Spero - you are a mum of one basing your comments on your own experience of your one child. My first was like that. My second was the chaos version. Nothing to do with me as a parent, just different babies with different little personalities and needs.

Well, since you ask, I'll have a go.
You had a child who slept 5 hours a day. I had one who would only nap if I napped at the same time, and never for more than 30 minutes. I bf; to start with he had a tonguetie and found latching quite hard, so the only way to feed was lying down - for up to 2 hours at a time. We co-slept for the first 6m - this induced a state of something like SPD in my unstable pelvis, as a result of sleeping in a protective manner to ensure DS was safe. My sleep was very disrupted, I was very tired during the day as well.

Yes, I could put DS down for a short time, usually enough to maybe wash a few pans; I can't do vacuuming o rheavy lifting because of unstable pelvis. My DH and I made the bargain that I would do all the night work and he would cook dinner (he loves cooking and sleeping). Some days, just doing the washing was all I could manage (using cloth nappies).

Most days for the first couple of months I did spend a lot of time (but not every day at all!) in my nightclothes, because I spent a lot of time in bed feeding DS. When his feeding improved, I was able to start feeding him while sitting - this immediately improved my getting-up-and-dressed quotient.

My DS was also not a child who would cry himself to sleep - if left for more than 10 mins, he would work up to a state of boiling hysteria (pouring with sweat) and keep it up for an hour at least. Initially we had to be careful with allowing him to cry because he had an inguinal hernia and crying put pressure on it, so we didn't let him for long until he had it repaired.

I am sorry you had no support from your ex, that is hard and you have done well to cope so admirably (while still being lucky to have a DC sho slept so much during the day); I think I would have lived on cheese and crisps and apples for the first few months if DH hadn't been around. Not through "letting myself go" but purely through circumstance.

Spero - you are not looking down on people. What you are saying makes sense. It was our experience too.

I do think some women I have known have become completely consumed by their baby and nothing else matters. Sure it is that way to start with of course - but life goes on and caring for yourself and your DP/DH and your home should gradually come back into balance.

spero - it isn't 'nonsense' to say that you won't put a baby down for even 5 minutes. If it made him cry, I didn't, unless I absolutely had to. Doing the dusting doesn't come into that category as far as I'm concerned. It might seem like nonsense to you but it's the way I parent. That doesn't make it wrong, just different from the way you do it.

It's statements like that which I suspect may be getting people's backs up.

thumbwitch, that sounds very tough and it sounds a very hard situation.

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on cases like that but nor am i basing my experiences on just me and my child!! I must have known about 100 other mothers thru various toddler groups, friends of friends, nurseries etc.

And i have met mothers, been to their homes etc and just been bewildered by why they say they are having such a tough time. They've got supportive partners and often extra help with cleaning etc.

I do worry that saying babies inevitably bring chaos is allowing some people to make excuses and stopping some people get help when they really need it, when they are depressed for eg. If you are told having a baby means you will not get dressed and you'll live in a filth pit, what happens if you think this is normal.

And btw the five hours a day thing wsa for the first three months. then she dropped the naps pretty quickly. But you are quite right to say I was lucky, I enjoyed every minute of that...

Spero, you've clearly been very lucky, but you've also made choices that others might not. I could absolutely not have listened to my young baby crying for ten or even five or two minutes while I did something essentially unimportant like vacuuming or washing up or putting make up on or washing my hair. I would have been as upset as the baby. Ten minutes is a really long time if you've only been alive for a few months.

Fortunately, I had and have a partner who understood this and shared my views about leaving a young baby alone to cry and who would never have been idiotic enough to base his love for me on what I looked like. He knew I was doing a tough job and he was as helpful as he possibly could be (although still a bit rubbish in that he needed to be told a lot, like so many men, it seems).

If I could have put my daughter down for a few minutes while I did something else without her crying, I would have done it. But some babies simply won't tolerate that. They need to be near their carers and IMO if you're prioritising your hair over your baby then something is a bit wrong somewhere.

What is sexy about a kitten anyway. The whole world is very very peculiar.

sorry spicemonster, I'm sticking with nonsense. I've spent time with enough of these mothers to be thoroughly irritated by this 'baby comes first foremost and always' attitude.

you are still a person with your own wants and needs. And so is your partner.

I've dealt with a lot of divorces where women have acted this way once the baby comes along, completely pushing their partner away and frankly being unreasonable, nitpicking and very, very dull.

If that gets your back up, sorry. But it is my experience, and my view and I'm sticking with it.

thanks Spero - but you see, I didn't have PND or an abusive partner or your other previous exemptions - so you can see how my back was put up as well, can't you?

And Horton, out of interest what do you do or recommend to parents whose baby won't stop crying?? A couple of times I HAD to leave my baby and just shut the door because no matter what I did, nappy change, feed, cuddled, she wouldn't stop crying and i was afraid i might hurt her if i didn't get out, even for just 10 minutes.

Babies cry. I absolutely refuse to accept unless you can direct me to some very convincing peer reviewed research that leaving a baby to cry for 10 minutes causes harm to that baby.

I think saying that babies inevitably bring chaos is pretty useful, actually. If you're not living in chaos with a tiny baby, you can at least feel proud of that even if you're having a shitty time, have to carry the baby 24/7 and have sick in your hair. I would imagine from my experience that more babies bring chaos in their wakes than don't.