To say when it comes to parenting, men make choices, woman have to make sacrifices?

[Sushipaws]

I made a comment the other day to my dh saying that sometimes I felt a bit selfish doing things that put my dd second, like going clothes shopping.

He said that was the difference between men and woman, that men are less likely to give up the things they enjoy because they became a parent. I said that I didn't really have a choice to give up many of the things I enjoy and he disagreed.

He says it's about choices and I say woman have to make sacrifices and thats part of being a parent. He says he refuses to give up the things he loves and will fit them around parenting.

He's a good dh and most of the time he pulls his weight as a parent. He works long hours and has a high stress job, so it's not like he's lying around while I do everything.

I just wanted to know if other woman felt that they'd sacrificed a bit more than they expected when they became parents. Or if I'm being unreasonable and I made this choice?

I knowingly made the choice to sacrifice things when I had children.

I knew that my life as I knew it would be over.

dp on the other hand, made the choice to fit parenthood around his life.

obvious differences: if he wants to go out, he goes out. If I want to go out, I have to see whether he has made plans before I can confirm anything. He wouldn't change his plans if I subsequently booked myself a night out.

I think about who is looking after the children every minute of the day and if they are not at nursery, I have something organised for them, whether it be me or dp. He assumes I'm looking after them and doesn't think about it unless I tell him he has to be around.

Thats my point squonk, but you put it better. I did know my life would change completely but I didn't expect to get such a bad sleeper or to feel like I was the person who had to cope with all the management (for want of a better word) of parenting.

I don't think you can make generalisations. Obviously there are some relationships that work as the op and Squonk describe. Dh and I don't work that way at all.

I think your dh is probably right. It's a question of choice.

Squonk, If you want a night out what would happen if you just decided to go out in the way that you say your dh does and then he decided to go out? Surely he would then have to arrange the childcare to enable him to go out.

I do think it's sometimes the case of the woman assuming more responsibility than perhaps they need to and so the man lets them. Or they are not happy with arrangements that the man makes so take over and then get upset when they get left to it. At least that's what happened with us for a while.

I think it's just different outlooks on things.

juule - he would just make sure he left the house before I did.

then when he got back he would be all "oh! you wanted to go out you should have said!"

I should point out that it's not me going out that he would have a problem with, it's not looking after the children he would have a problem with, it's just him not going out that would be the issue.

He says things like "I didn't know I was supposed to be looking after the children. You didn't tell me I was supposed to be looking after them!" when I've just left the room or something!

That isn't how it is in my family.
We both fit our lives around the children, and to some extent they fit in around us too. I don't think that's a bad thing. And I don't feel selfish for doing things for myself either. I know things are harder for for my sister who is a lone parent though.

Yes sushi I do all the management side of things. I know what you mean.

I also have made sacrifices - but it was my choice but not until after DS had arrived and realised something had to give and it wasnt going to be be DH's job.

He is a good dad but sometime I would like him just to be a bit more 'into it'

And if you kept reminding him all day that you were going out and he needed to arrange childcare if he wanted to go out, too? What then? You know, sort of give him a countdown like you do for toddlers. He couldn't say that he didn't know then, could he?

And you might say that you shouldn't have to do this but if you have to do, you have to do it until it finally sinks in and doesn't need to be said.

This was true in my case. I had sacraficed career and so salary, pension, opportunity to save or get on to my own property ladder. My x wouldn't make one single compromise, never mind a sacrafice. EVERY single sacrafice of parenthood HAD to be my sacrafice. He wasn't open to reason. He was a particularly selfish person.

I think it's the small sacrifices that get to me.

We both used to enjoy time to ourselves. He stays up late at night so he can get some time alone. I think thats fine, it's his choice but I can't because I'm the one that gets up during the night if dd wakes up and she's up for the day from 6 - 6.30am. He gets up with her 2-3 times a week but he doesn't go to bed early, he just spends the day tired and grumpy or goes back to bed when I get up.

He says it's a choice that I go to bed early but I think I don't have a choice if the alternative is to spend my days feeling like death warmed up. My opinion is that I'm a parent all day, I don't get lunch or tea breaks to myself.

As for going out, ha ha ha, I hardly ever go out. Dh always asks if it's alright if he goes out, but usually only once he's arranged it. I would check to see if I could go out then arrange it.

Well I made a deal with my wife before we had kids that I would give up my career and do something more flexible, lower paid but enjoyable while she carried on with her high earning high flying career.

It did not work out the way she hoped and she stil says sometimes she is not a 'natural mother' and mourns the loss of her career. I kept my end of the deal but eventually gave that second career up as well and now we work together.

I guess it depends on the person and what they feel they gave up. I also suppose the practical reality is that men on average stil earn more than women and so economics drives the decision of many women to give up work and become SAHM.

Some men also feel they sacrifice something by missing out on family life by having to go out and earn the daily bread.

I do not think it is all one way traffic and sometimes practical reality forces the decision of who (mother or father) gives up what.

juule - at some point in the day he would either "realise" that we had both arranged to go out, and that would start a row between us.

Or he would just go out first, leaving me with the problem.

Abetadad, I think that's important, thrashing out your deal before the children arrive. That was my mistake, I hoped everthing would be alright. Foolishly, there was NO negotiation at all.

My DH is great on lots of levels, but at the end of the day, his lifestyle has changed very little, while mine is now completely child-driven.

When I was working, if anything went tits-up with childcare, I had to sort it. I've always been the one that does most of the getting up in the night, early in the morning etc, bedtimes etc, but partly cos it has evolved like that due to his previous job.

I know personally I have to take a fair bit of responsibility for how it worked out, as I frankly didn't have the energy or the oomph to argue the toss over the unfairness of it all, and I expect it's the same for a lot of women.

I've been SAHM for 8 months now since being made redundant last year. To be honest I thought my being made redundant would be the end of us but DH has changed his job and now has more time with us which is great as a family and means I now get a social life as he no longer works evenings and weekends.

Strangely, even though he's the one bringing home the dosh these days, I'm far more likely to stand up for my entitlement to a bit of me time than I was when I was working.

But surely it is because most men do not seek any form of validation from being a parent?

Dads just don't become victims to their children ....

bytheLiffey - a few couples I know did do a sort of silent negotiation where the woman really wanted to have kids (biological clock ticking) and the man just held out until she had to give in and agree to his silent demand that she looked after the kids and he got on with his career.

I do understand the resentment that the women feel in these cases. They feel they got held up at gunpoint in a way.

In fact, sacrifices are choices though aren't they? It's just a more emotive way of expressing it?

standing up for yourself is important. somehow, i ended up in an environment where I was expected to be grateful that a roof was being provided for me etc, and yet, I had sacraficed everything of my own. Utterly dependent and expected to be ^grateful* or something similar. I knwo my case was extreme, but I see elements of it in other peoples posts.

I think this "sacrifices" versus "choices" thing is misleading and a false dichotomy.

It wasn't in my case and I'm not alone.

My case was extreme, you'd have to look hard to find a man as selfish as my x, but there are a lot of women who have made themselves vulnerable by having children. It's not the norm perhaps, but it's not rare either.

It wasn't in my case and I'm not alone.

My case was extreme, you'd have to look hard to find a man as selfish as my x, but there are a lot of women who have made themselves vulnerable by having children. It's not the norm perhaps, but it's not rare either.

"Abetadad, I think that's important, thrashing out your deal before the children arrive."

The biggest problem with that is you don't really have any idea what it is really like to be a parent until you have the baby. To a certain extent your whole relationship gets renegotiated once you become a parent.

Maybe mothers biggest problem is that we are so good at multi-tasking that we forget about ourselves? Men seem (not always) to concentrate at one thing at a time so consequently, end up with more balance. I have, at times perceived it as selfishness but DH probably sees it it differently.

Squonk so are you keeping quiet and going along with things to avoid a row? If you just went out and left him with the childcare problem, what then? Another row?
What if you discussed it and agreed certain nights when you each had first call on going out?

I think it's quite interesting but I also think it's more subtle. I don't think I've sacrificed that much by having children (apart from not being responsible to anyone, which for me was fairly major!) and I have gained an enormous amount too.

For me, the subtle differences come in me being the one that wakes up when the children are not breathing right at night (for example) rather than dh - it's as though I am 'wired' into the children in a way that dh isn't. In no way has it or does it make either of us the more superior parent and in many ways, dh is far better at the day to day stuff than me but I would say that is the main difference between us. Not necessarily sacrifices and choices but that I have a little extra piece activated on my brain now that seems entirely dedicated to the children whereas dh seems to have been able to carry on as he was before and seamlessly integrate them into his life iyswim.