To say when it comes to parenting, men make choices, woman have to make sacrifices?

[Sushipaws]

I made a comment the other day to my dh saying that sometimes I felt a bit selfish doing things that put my dd second, like going clothes shopping.

He said that was the difference between men and woman, that men are less likely to give up the things they enjoy because they became a parent. I said that I didn't really have a choice to give up many of the things I enjoy and he disagreed.

He says it's about choices and I say woman have to make sacrifices and thats part of being a parent. He says he refuses to give up the things he loves and will fit them around parenting.

He's a good dh and most of the time he pulls his weight as a parent. He works long hours and has a high stress job, so it's not like he's lying around while I do everything.

I just wanted to know if other woman felt that they'd sacrificed a bit more than they expected when they became parents. Or if I'm being unreasonable and I made this choice?

I think you are both right in certain circumstances.

In our house - I make 'choices' but that is because my DH earns the most and I have the luxury (if you can call it that) of more time available in the day because I am a SAHM. But I have sacrificed a pension, moving up the career ladder etc.

He sacrifices time with his children and he grieves that he cannot share their little daytime lives because the responsibilities of breadwinning are his.

In terms of a social life or shopping choices etc. If we can do them, we do them. We both trust that we love our children and put them first so I don't understand any of this parental guilt stuff...

By the way, your DH sounds lovely so don't go too hard on him. Agree to disagree would be my advice!

Sushipaws:
I think I find myself in a similar position and am also in two minds about it.

When we decided to have children I was very clear with DH that here was no way that he could fall into the "helping" role, since that assumed that I was the main carer and he just helped out. We were going to share. (We both work full-time btw)

However, things have not gone according to plan. I bf'd and so had to get up in the night, fair enough. Then I pumped and pumped during the day when I went back work. Suddenly it turned out that I was responsable for washing and sterlising all the equipment. He would do it if I asked, but never of his own accord.

And thus it went on: DH always does what I ask him to do. But he doesn't volunteer or get off the couch/out of bed to help. He's perfectly capable: I have to go away every so often for work and he copes just fine. But if I'm there I have to leave instructions about clothes and food (and if not he'll ring me on my mobile to ask for them).

Have I brought this on myself, I wonder sometimes? Was it my attitude or his? I'm not sure now, but feel frustrated sometimes. Especially when he says he'll take DS to the park etc to give me sometime to myself, hen really it means ... so you can get on with the cooking/cleaning/washing.

Why don't you do what we did? I got up in the night for the first year when they breastfed and he did all the years after that - so for our twins who woke in the night every night just about until they were 3+ I had a year of lots of waking and then he had two years. That was fair enough.

I think people get familiar with the tasks they are in sole charge of. So for example he dealt with all washing and the diswasher. I hardly knew how to put them on. He rng out and washed all the cloth nappies. I always got the school bags ready and plaited the girls' hair. He took children to the dentis for 17 years. I never took them once. he did all hair cut trips etc etc.

So can't you sit down and divide some jobs up like that - that you don't for example have anything to do with washing in the week - that's his job.

Catitainahatita - this was largely my situation, and it's so easy to feel too tired to be bothered to ask, and to feel like we shouldn't have to, but once you start asking - regularly - it does eventually sink in to some level and you may find you have to do it less.

My DH still makes me laugh sometimes when he's home at the weekend though and has to ask, for instance, whether DD has her soup in a cup or a bowl. Seems a shame that he doesn't just know....

Xenia, my x's idea of dividing the tasks was, him earn the money, me put up and shut up.

Obviously this was an extreme case, but my point is you can't be reasonable and fair and equal about the housework for two. You can only be reasonable and fair yourself.

just to say thanks for this thread - I was beginning to feel bogged down by my brain keeping me in 'on mummy' mode all the time while MrNC can switch off more easily. However it's just a development of how we've always been - I've always organised our finances and household stuff and diaries almost subconsciously, while he wrangles builders and DIY (and he can't switch off his house-worrying very well, either).

So I think we have just to get back to our rules like if you going out isn't on the calendar, it isn't happening. I think it will be easier when I'm not doing all the feeding so he can do some of the night wakings. He's told me to take more time off, so that's a good start. Must go make a reflexology appt - I thought he was having a strop about me doing that on a Sat am, but turns out he was just making a bad joke...

oh yes, cathrine alliot used to be funny, the old girl network was HILARIOUS. Not sure her most recent books were funny at all though.

oh, sorry, I have had a g&t. typign under the influence.

Interesting thread.

Before I had ds dh & I had a pretty much 50/50 split on all the domestic stuff. 6 months maternity leave & I found myself back at work full-time & still doing most of the domestic drudgery as that was what we'd agreed would happen when I was on maternity leave. Once I realized I was still doing most of the housework as well as working full-time dh & I sat down & agreed who would do what. We no longer have such a strict arrangement about who does what but it was necessary to get back into an even split.

We've had times when dh earned more & times when I have & it's never made a difference. The hours worked & flexibility of our respective jobs is reflected by who does most in the house but we don't put a material value on it.

Going out is still one area where we do have words every now & again. dh plays football or cricket depending on the time of year & assumes that every Saturday I'll be with ds & he can go out as that's what he's always done. Whilst I can see his point to a certain extent it does sometimes grate that he assumes I'll arrange my weekend around his sport. It also irritates me that if we both want to go out at the same time he'll assume I'll make the necessary arrangements - be it childcare or rearranging whatever it is I want to do. Last time we were in that situation I told him he could either cancel his arrangements or arrange a suitable babysitter. Unfortunately he informed me that the 12 year old daughter of someone he worked with would be looking after ds. The 12 year old in question had never met me, dh or ds but dh regarded her as suitable as her dad said she was mature for her age. The end result was that dh stayed home with ds as I'd planned to go out first & I didn't regard his choice of babysitter as acceptable.

As for lay ins at the weekend we take it in turns & during the week I get up first as I take a while to get ready. These days I usually have to wake ds up in the morning as he's started to love his (actually more often our) bed.

I think it's really important not to get into bad habits. It's so easy to end up feeling put upon when in reality it's up to you to make the changes you need to be happy.

Totally agree with that last point from Claire.

If it isn't working for you at the moment, what are you prepared to say, do, and insist on to get it where it needs to be?

There is something about being willing to give up control too. for instance when my DH looks after the kids he does it differently to me - he feeds them whatever junk is easy and usually forgets to take their coats when they go out...but you know what it doesn't matter. I have made a choice to let him do it his way and just claim the time I need for myself, and to trust everyone will be safe and happy when I get home - and they always are.

sorry too many generalisations,and perpetrating the martyr give it all up mum

we are all individuals
we make choices
motherhood doesn't necessarily equate to giving things up

your circumstances are not necessarily applicable to others

sounds like you two may need to talk

It isn't just about children. I have found at work that women in my team who are about to go on holiday will stay late days in advance to fully clear their desks and leave copious notes to make things as easy as possible for anyone who has to pick up in their absence. Men are more likely to just work as normal, leaving the loose ends loose, thinking, "It's annual leave - I booked it, I am entitled to it, someone else will have to deal with it while I am off". I am sure there are many exceptions to this gender stereotyping and in fact statistically it may not be the case that these two personality types separate on gender lines at all - I don't know. but I do find the difference interesting as it seems to me that neither type can be made to see things the other way. Nature or nurture?

Gosh i think i'dmaange about 5 minutes with Squonbks DH before screaming (which is why we marry different people,onbviously. No doubt he'd loathe me !)

If dh wants to go out then we see what's on and vice versa.If at allpossible the person going out will take a child. We rarely go out to pubs etc whre you can't,mainly as we'd want to go together and cannot. I wouldnt aheva problemw ith dh going btw and neither would he iy just hasnt worked out like that fora while (we live away from friends and family,didmroe when we were close).

It's a joint job. DH ahs invoked the flexible work rules to give me helpwith the boys (2 with SN) and ne day i will work and support him at college- its a partnershp.

YANBU - this is the most accurate description of the male and female attitude towards parenting I have ever read!

I think it's bollocks.

I know it is hard to anticipate all this before having children, but surely everyone realises that life changes after children and to talk about making sacrifices is a bit, well - matyr-ish? I think it is true that we do have as many choices - for example, I could easily work full time if I chose to - but I don't. It limits me in the jobs that I can look at, and my longer term career plans - but I don't think of this as a sacrifice - it just is how it is.

I think most people have had a twinge at buying something for themselves when they have children but I don't think this is exclusive to women - but sushipaws you shouldn't feel you are putting your DD second when you buy yourself some clothes - new clothes are very important to one's self esteem, confidence and all-round health and wellbeing!

UnquietDad, you're not in a position to say "it's bollix". Your relationship works but clearly, many are still very inequal.. Women put up with far too much before leaving. I'm all for leaving rather than putting up with it though! so i'm not whinging pointlessly. But these imbalances are still absolutely rife.

My exh told me that "only one of our lives has to change now we are parents and it aint gonna be mine", and it wasnt.

Fleurchaunte - did your ex mention that little detail to you before you had children. Not surprised he's your ex.

UnquietDad - maybe for your relationship it's bollocks but a lot of people still have distinctly old fashioned relationships.

I am in a position to say it's bollocks when applied as a general rule, as a man-woman thing, which is the way it is being portrayed on here.

yes,fatalistic bollocks to portray that motherhood is an inevitable sacrifice and compromise

You're interpreting it as all men take advantage of all women, and that's not what it is.

I think women lose their bargaining position in a relationship after kids. There are always exceptions, I'm talking about generally. Mr and Mrs average.

If you end up in a relationship with a man who turns out not to be decent,fair, equal, generous, then you've nothing to worry about. But is EVERYbody like that?

sorry I mean 'turns out to be decent etc

As long as woman are silly enough to marry men who earn more and then to give up work they will have these issues. Outearn your man and carry on working full time and you tend to have economic power and that's what talks in our culture and then you'll find you don't have those issues or was it pure chance the fact I earned a lot more meant I never tolerated or had even to encounter a sexist man? When you need to be nice, put out, please a man because you're so worried he'll leave and you'll starve then you tend to tolerate his sexism. It's a basic political and feminist point perhaps.

Could have stopped at as long as women are silly enough...Xenia