to think that day care centres or 'nurseries' should be banned?

[Goodomen]

Having spent some time working (doing supply) in several different nurseries I have been appalled by the treatment of the babies and and young children.

The babies spend most of the day crying, desperately wanting to be held or have some kind of one to one attention.

They are all forced to 'nap' at the same time whether they are tired or not.

They are put in highchairs and fed one by one with the poor children at the end of the row crying until it is their turn to be fed.

The worst part is when the parent arrives to collect their child and asks how they have been they are told 'He/She has been fine, had a lovely time' even if the child has been crying all day!

Why oh why would anyone out there child in such a place?
If you have to work get a childminder!

I don't think anyonee has posted inflammatory personal insults. I made one personal coment in response to an insult aimed at me,

Pleased to read londonone that you don't get upset about other people's opinions.

Means I can give my opinion that you are posting idiotic nonsense, on a subject that you know nothing about and that your posts display the intelligence and empathy one would expect from a brick. Jolly good

Sorry peachy I disagree completely as IMO that is not a comparable situation.

Go for it Northern, if insulting me as an individual makes you feel better then feel free.
But I would expect that sort of level of argument from a northerner

I reckon londonone is a troll and/or on a wind up. Don't feed the troll folks.

PS Peachy thanks for your vote

So Londone, if and when you have a child and your economic circumstances deterioriate to the extent that you have to work, what form of childcare would you use? Or would you prefer to live off benefits as long as you are with your child 24/7 courtesy of other tax paying parents?

I was going to ask pretty much the same question spokette but decided it was pretty pointless arguing with someone who was arguing from a purely theoretical position who could well be a 15 year old boy!

London - I insulted your posts and the stupidity displayed within - not you as such. Disappointed you couldn't register that - though not surprised.

I am neither a troll nor a wind up. Relatively new to MN and definitely have strong opinions but not a troll. No doubt will cross swords with some in the future. I do like a strong debate and perhaps am used to "sturdier" forums than MN! I was under the impression that the AIBU area was where the strongest and least "fluffy" debate took place, perhaps I got that wrong.

nothing fluffy around here - when somebody is talking crap we will tell them as much!

spokette and spice - I have repeatedly stated that I am aware that people's circumstances change. I would not plan to work when my children are babies but if I was forced to I would intend to use a mixture of family, partner and if necessary a CM.

I feel concerned and uneasy that the government is promoting institutionalisation of children via the long hours culture and economic incentives and pressure for both women and men to work full time.

I have always worked albeit part time, and I feel bad and guilty that I did not look after my daughter myself, full time. In terms of economic independence for myself and my child this was the right decision - but for me I felt there was a definite trade off - my child's optimal emotional well being sacrificed for economic independence for the two of us. Individuals and circumstances differ so I don't think this is a universal truth of experience. I do think most of us parents are running a balancing act though and striving to achieve the best balance we can for all parties in all ways.

Well the reality is that many of us do not have family close by (ours are 200 miles away), my DH works full time so that just leaves formal childcare for us. My preference is a nursery setting and I can say that after 4.5 years, I have been delighted and satisfied with the service that we have received. So have most of the parents.

There are very good nurseries as well as CM and there are awful nurseries and CM (just like parents).

truth be told londonone I cant be bothered to read the rest of the thread...

just shocked you are still fighting your corner 8 hours later.. based on no facts whatsoever...

but hey thats your right...

Good for you spokette - Not the choice I would make but glad it worked out for you.

Podrick - well said

Reasons why my nursery was good:

Very low turnover of staff - the nursery nurse who now babysits for us now was there for the whole time that the twins went there.

The manager had her child in the nursery.

Parents could come to see their child whenever they wanted without pre-announcing their visit.

Displays of the childen's work was visible

There was a timetable outlining the children's day

Parents could speak at length to the staff

There was menu detailing meals and snacks. They had a cook so food was freshly prepared and even the staff ate their meals there.

The manager organised staff and parents get togher like eating out at restaurants, visits to farms etc.

They followed the early year's curriculum

Staff were encouraged to improve on their personal development by undertaking further training.

My DD's nursery sounds similar to spokette's and I have to say that although she is missing out on being with me as I work part time, I am convinced she is gaining in different ways.

I will be the first to admit that when I was at home full time things became a bit routine - we went to the same places and saw the same (few) people which was fine as she was such a tiny baby. But as she is coming up to one year old I think it is natural that her horizons should be broadened and I know that on my own I would not be able to arrange this for various reasons.

There have also been many occasions when I have gone to collect her from nursery and she has been playing happily and interacting with staff and when I have gone into the room she has looked up and acknowledged me and then continued to play. She loves it and that is all I need to know to continue to send her there.

A side benefit is that the time I spend with her I can maximise our activities and play time etc and not feel as if we are stuck in a rut.

The nursery where my poor neglected little DD has been dumped since she was 9 months old is staffed by ladies who have children of their own. Her keyworker is in her 40s and her own grandson is also in the nursery full time.

I have called in at odd times on many occasions and have never seen anything untoward.

In the recent snow DH took her to nursery in the morning and parked immediately outside. Realising he was in a disabled parking space he moved up the road a bit. DD thought he was driving off and was looking out of the window at her nursery, shouting at him and desperately trying to get out of her car seat. Not the actions of a child who is having a miserable time in day care and she is there from 8am to 4.30pm 5 days a week.

I was a SAHM to DD1 for 4.5 years, then DH and I worked shifts around each other so that there was always someone with the children, with help from FIL. It was very hard and we never saw each other. DD2 was a surprise. We didn't plan her and I was already working full time. We couldn't reduce our outgoings- only got a 3 bed house as it is, with 5 children. What do we do, force our teens to live in a one bed flat so I can afford to stay at home with their sister?

you really should report this as bad practise (which it clearly is) otherwise it will just continue and that's not going to help the children in this particular nursery!
I'd feel awful if I witnessed it as bad as you say and then did nothing to try to improve the situation. It may be that the mmanagement needs sorting out, it doesn't sound as though the ratio is as it should be.

"georgimama - Interesting that you think looking after ones own child would lead to one being on tranqulisers. Makes me wonder why people have children if this is what they feel about looking after them."

I can't help responding to this, I shouldn't, it isn't worth it, but what the fuck, you're an argumentative arrogant little so and so, why shouldn't I respond in kind.

I was quite clearly responding to a poster who asked whether it would be better in your eyes for her to give up her job and live in B&B on benefits with her DS rather than work. I replied that oh yes, in some people's eyes that would clearly be better. She'd be on tranquilisers from the stress, but so what? She'd be with her DS and that has got to be intrinsically a good thing.

You know that is what I was talking about. You just want to try and portray me (for some twisted reason of your own) as someone who thinks looking after children is some kind of life sentence. Carry on.

A few people here may have come across my posts before, I don't pretend to be memorable, but if anyone cares enough, a cursory glance through the archives will show that I am a very involved and motivated parent, thanks all the same.

Podrick, actually I think you'll find that the government can be one of the few places to put its money where its mouth is when it comes to family friendly policies.

Commercial businesses tend to stick to the letter of the law only on family friendly issues, tend to have a long working hours culture, and be quite inflexible - this despite more and more and more legislation that seeks to protect the family. It is moving in the right direction, IMO, but it's a slow process as they have to win over the business community in order to do it. I used to work for a FTSE 100 company that was considered exemplary because it had occasionally allowed mothers to work part time

I now work for a government agency, however, and couldn't ask for more flexbility: they give childcare vouchers, which will continue even when I'm on unpaid mat leave (i.e. FREE vouchers, not deducted from pay); I can work flexitime so leave at 4pm every day to pick up my son; they promote home working properly so I don't have to commute every day; if my son is ill I go home, no questions asked, no effect on pay or holiday; they are paying me full maternity pay despite not being legally obliged to (I started there when already pregnant); they obey not just the letter but the spirit of the law on parental leave and all other family policies.

Around me are lots of people who work odd hours to accommodate family, who come in late or leave early, who take strange holiday patterns to cope with school holidays or unusual family set ups.

I don't think 'institutionalised' childcare is the problem - it's employers who aren't interested in supporting and recognising women as valuable members of the workforce.

Just my opinion, you understand

Cheers for making those of us already feeling guilty but having to work feel even worse. There was I thinking that the staff were honest with me, the fact that they have never made a mistake with dd's various food allergies was a sign that they were attentive and caring, that she talks about them enthusiastically and that she runs in on the 3 days she goes were positive signs.
Thanks for making me doubt all of that with your sweeping generalisations......

I am probably regret sticking my beak into this but I just can't resist.... I pulled DD out of her highly recommended, highly rated by Ofstead and very expensive nursery after 2 days because it was not what was 'sold' to me.

• On visiting days (by appointment) the kids looked so happy there were no crying babies, staff were on the floor cuddling and holding the babies. T'was am afraid bolleaux of the highest order, the babies were left to CIO a lot of the time from what I could gather. I too was told that she was fine when she had been obviously crying.

• They had a timetable in the baby room during the day i.e. between 8-9 music, etc . Turns out that was just spin they didn't do anything but fill out paperwork or whatever

I could go on and on, most people on here say go with your gut but thing is I really did go with my gut, I really thought that I had found somewhere lovely for DD. The only reason I realised what went on is because I popped into the nursery every few hours to breastfeed. unfortunately I had to quit my job anyway due to other issues so I have some breathing space to reassess. I can't remember what my original point after that long ramble, except to say that I agree with wannabe. Its not just good enough to say that there are some good and bad nurseries and dismiss it like that.

A solution needs to be openly debated (without the WOHM/SAHM hysterics) about standards of care and identifying the needs of differing age groups. Plus capping the profits of private nurseries and standardizing levels of pay & qualifications a bit like teachers might help.

I always feel quite protective of the nursery nurses in our nursery when I read such posts as OP. They do a wonderful job on very low salaries. If you ask my son who his best friends are he names the 5 nursery teachers who work in his room.

after much thought, i am planning to put my DS in nursery when he is around 10 months. After talking to lots of mums, and going with my instincts, i feel like there is greater accountability of staff in a nursery setting. I also think DS will really enjoy the social aspects. He loves to be around large groups of children and is a real people watcher.

I have worked as a nanny for older children, and I was crap at it. There were days when I just didn't want to be bothered and there was no one to look over my shoulder. I can't help but worry that it could be the same case with some childminders on a bad day.

As far as my decision to go back to work - well, we could probably make it without the income i will get after the cost of childcare. But i am frankly too old to put my career on hold (and expect to be hireable) until DS in in school. It is also important to me to make my own money and not be totally dependent on DH.

honestly I think DS gets bored when he is just with me all day, and I have high hopes he will actually enjoy nursery.

If not, I will reassess.

FairyMum - that is very sweet and I also have friends whose children name their nursery carers as their best friends.