to think that day care centres or 'nurseries' should be banned?

[Goodomen]

Having spent some time working (doing supply) in several different nurseries I have been appalled by the treatment of the babies and and young children.

The babies spend most of the day crying, desperately wanting to be held or have some kind of one to one attention.

They are all forced to 'nap' at the same time whether they are tired or not.

They are put in highchairs and fed one by one with the poor children at the end of the row crying until it is their turn to be fed.

The worst part is when the parent arrives to collect their child and asks how they have been they are told 'He/She has been fine, had a lovely time' even if the child has been crying all day!

Why oh why would anyone out there child in such a place?
If you have to work get a childminder!

I think my DC's nursery is quite brilliant.

Glad to hear that VT thought some newbie was trying to steal your persona.

Maybe we should all start putting Nanny Cams in teddy bears and send our kids to Nursery with the teddy and then we can see how them nursery staff torture are children

Would make a good documentry for Panorama thou under cover nursery staff Might write to the BBC lol

I want to point out that londonone and I are two different people! I don't want to be associated with rather aggressive generalisations. People have said this much more eloquently than me already but choosing whether to work or not, and choosing care for your child is a highly individual process but obviously also affected by what options are available to you.

Lauren, I think some of the best nurseries are those attached to colleges and so on, because they are very closely scrutinised on a regular basis. So I think you'll find it's OK, and the other advantage is that if you miss your baby you will be able to pop in to collect him/her early if you like and do something fun together.

Kids definitely learn helpful social skills at a good nursery as well, and research shows they settle better at school later on, and have wider friendship groups. The key is whether it is a good nursery that treats children as individuals whilst planning fun activities (eg sandpit time, outdoor play, art and crafts, story time, etc).

Regarding the home birth, if you are young and fit, you will probably find this is a lot easier than mucking about going into hospital while in labour. Birthing pools are really good to have and cut the pain by about half in my experience. You might want to hire a TENS machine as well because this helps a lot too for most people.

I am really glad to hear you are going to classes because I honestly believe this is key to having a good birth experience. Best of luck with it all - I had my first at 19 and it was great!!

Haven't Panorama already made that programme?

I don't think that nurseries should be banned, but in my experience the care that a lot of nurseries provide is woefully inadequate.

I worked in a nursery before having children of my own and a lot of the OP's observations about what happens in nurseries are fair and very common. The best nurseries are those with a low ratio (1:2) or not privately run. I strongly think that a ratio of 1:3 is harmful for young children, especially when adults are often busy doing other non-childcare activities like filling out diaries (and yes, even in the best OFSTED nurseries with excellent local reputations, these diaries can be staged) etc.

I understand that parents who use nurseries for young children may feel defensive and that it doesn't apply to them; and that the comments that are anti-nursery are also anti-working mothers, but the surprising thing is how many anti-nursery comments are from people who have worked in nurseries.

It is often not a black/white case of reporting it to OFSTED, as the issues we're talking about are not out-and-out neglect ... it could be something like a little boy who sits quietly by himself all morning and nobody interacts or talks with him. He may smile and greet his parent with joy when (s)he arrives to pick him up, show his parents a picture he has drawn, but this does not mean the child has had a good day or that it is a good environment for him to grow up in.

I don't think it is unreasonable to discuss these issues and it should not turn into a personal attack against anyone. I would hope that nurseries might remain an option, but that the quality and standards expected were much higher. Realistically, this is not going to happen in a privately run nursery (especially a chain) where the ratios are squeezed and corners are cut.

I prefer nursery anyday to a childminder.

Also, if you book a home birth Lauren, you can change your mind at any time and go in, although people only normally transfer for medical reasons, which is usually that labour simply isn't progressing. You mw will advise you (and unlike in hospital you can guarantee a mw will be with you).

The poor OP is only telling the truth, from her own experiences. Sometimes the truth hurts. Why would she lie?

I have no experience of nurseries. but have done agency work in old peoples homes. It's amazing how everyone jumps into action when family members visit. The tunes go on, the cakes come out, sometimes even a drinks trolley and a singsong! Visitors leave and everything goes back to normal, i.e. general neglect. Family are told how well their relative is settling in and making friends and how fond everyone is of them and how much they love the food (seldom true). This happens in all homes, good and bad ones. And yes, I have reported the really bad ones.

Also, all these babies coming home smelling of perfume, sounds like the nursery nurses are spraying the kids to make it seem like they've been cuddled all day, lol!!!

boffinmum thank you, made me feel much better, yh i love the thought of having onetoone personal care from 2 midwives! u dont get that at hospital - sorry for bein off topic.. !

Well the OP has made me feel so great about my choice.

Feel really upset now.

wannabe
"Nurseries have to adhere to minimum standard of 1-3, this means that babies can often be left crying/that they cannot all be fed at the same time, thus meaning that some babies have to wait for their lunch while others are being fed/that they cannot all be comforted at the same time. Therefore, the minimum legal requirements are, IMO, unacceptable and should be changed."

Parents of multiples have to deal with these logistics every day. If children are neglected it is due to the competency of the parent, not the numbers. Similarly, in a nursery environment

Also, would just like to add in response to the disgraceful comment about the education level of nursery nurses, that the majoirty of the nursery nurses at the one I used for my DTS were NNEB qualified, literate and articulate. In fact, one of them had a BEd and left to pursue her postgraduate training. Now the parents on the other hand... articulate some of them were not. Does that make them incompetent parents? I don't think so.

Finally, the myth that a mother has to be with her baby 24/7 is quite frankly, laughable. My mother went back to work when I was 6 weeks old. Parents staying at home to rear their children is a modern day indulgence for those who can afford it. Some of us actually prefer to work as well as raise our children. I don't diss those who want to stay at home and working parents should not be denigrated either.

About the ratios- is it that unusual for an ordinary mum to have 3 children under school age? I know several who do.

And there are even people who have families of 8 or over.

Are we saying that these children necessarily end up neglected?

IME childminders who take on the full quota are not actually spending their day running around with 8 children; they are only allowed a smaller number of under-school-age children. The older children, like my dcs, do not need constant attention so much as a safe place to chill after school; I can't imagine that gets in the way of a baby needing its bottle. Instead, older children can help to amuse and look after a toddler- much as they would do with a sibling.

Of course, it's a matter of trust - but then that's the same if you leave your child with grandparents or your partner; you first decide if you trust them. With a CM you have the advantage of being able to take references from other users.

goodomen i actually agree with u I myself work in a nursery want to change to school one as ifeel private are terriable too but I belive they may be a few that are ok ... maybe

Exactly Cory. My SIL had 4 under 3yo at one point, newborn, 11 months, 2yo and 3yo! They were not starved of food or affection!

The advantage with a CM is that unlike the mother she is not going to be semi-conscious from lack of sleep. Unless of course she is also a mother.

Cory,

Most are mothers though are'nt they?

TBH I prefer nursery. A childminder can have 3 under 5 which could be an under 1 and then 2 who are just 12 months (ie babies) and then 3 under 8's and as many over 8's as they like. A baby room NN will have maximum of 3 charges!

spokette makes some good points esp the 24/7 point .

Lets face it tehre is no perfect answer and to make sweeping generalistions re nurseries, cm or nannies is not helpful.

Can I just say on the issue of ratios, that we should not be reassured by the assumption that mothers of multiples deal with several children at the same time, so 1:3 must be ok.

As a mother of multiples myself, all my friends who have triplets have some form of help (family member, friend, mothers' help etc) because 3 young children (especially babies) is very difficult to manage and give appropriate levels of care.

Even twin babies is very difficult - that is not to say they are not loved and cared for, just that you can't always respond to their every cry, hold them when they're upset, etc. It breaks your heart as a mother of multiples.

As someone who has worked in a baby room, with a 1:3 ratio (and that includes people doing paperwork, so realistically is often much higher), I personally would not be happy with this ratio as an adequate level of care for my child if there was another alternative.

A modern day indulgence to stay at home with your kids? My husband is on a fairly low wage and I manage to be a SATM. It is hard, but it can be done with proper planning.

The real issue her is a conflict of maternal/material instincts. Anyone who thinks they are being FORCED to put their kids (under 3's)in daycare should be screaming out that it is an injustice.

Mainkins, as a mother of twins, I can say from experience that I have dealt better with the needs of my two than some of the mothers who only have one.

Babies do not need to have their every cry or gurgle attended to immediately either. If I was doing something that needed my attention, I just left my twins to cry until I could attend to them. They are now 5yo and as far as I can see, no damage has been done.

I don't understand why some people think that babies not receiving immediate attention as soon as they cry equates to some form of neglect. It is not - it is what happens in real life around the world!!

'Parents staying at home to rear their children is a modern day indulgence for those who can afford it.' I don't see it as an indulgence. Also, many mothers used to work while looking after their kids or loving relatives watched them. Of course in harder times life was worse in all areas but surely today we should have better options. Biologically it would seem a baby needs close continued contact with it's mother for the first months at least. However, our society doesn't fit with this model as it doesn't make money (no 1 concern in our society) and fit with the obsession of independence.

unpaidworker on Thu 26-Feb-09 14:25:49
"Cory,

Most are mothers though are'nt they?"

Yes, but not necessarily of young children. The childminders I have employed have all been middle-aged women with older/grownup children, so the sleeplessness problem does not apply.

Maiakins, having extra help for multiples doesn't normally apply if you have several young children born at different times.

Noone around this area can afford to employ mother's helps etc and you don't get it paid for you if you have successive children rather than triplets. Yet I have several friends who have brought up 3 under-school age children perfectly successfully.

When I had a baby and a toddler, the baby did often have to wait while I was dealing with the toddler; I couldn't respond to every cry. And the toddler's needs had to wait while I was breastfeeding or changing nappies. That is the natural way for any family with more than one child. Afraid it didn't break my heart. Though it was hard work.