to think that day care centres or 'nurseries' should be banned?

[Goodomen]

Having spent some time working (doing supply) in several different nurseries I have been appalled by the treatment of the babies and and young children.

The babies spend most of the day crying, desperately wanting to be held or have some kind of one to one attention.

They are all forced to 'nap' at the same time whether they are tired or not.

They are put in highchairs and fed one by one with the poor children at the end of the row crying until it is their turn to be fed.

The worst part is when the parent arrives to collect their child and asks how they have been they are told 'He/She has been fine, had a lovely time' even if the child has been crying all day!

Why oh why would anyone out there child in such a place?
If you have to work get a childminder!

I have twins too and it is harder to give them individual attention. I can imagine 3 babies being alot harder!

'disgraceful comment about the education level of nursery nurses, that the majoirty of the nursery nurses at the one I used for my DTS were NNEB qualified, literate and articulate.'

Yes I agree,sister is NNEb, 18 years experience and about to start BEd part time

Quite well qualified I would think.

I have worked like STocious in care homes: I worked in one awful one (sinceclosed) which fills my nights with terror now I have a ds3 who will need care one day for his sn (cant live forever) but also several excellent ones.

I'm not certain i'd use a baby room but many have to, and I asked my boys about their nursery memories yestterday and they would love to be back there! So it reallyy is theres good and bad; I pulled them from one daycare setting (a playschool) but the others were amazing

there is a difference though between a mother looking after her multiple babies and three babies being looked after in a nursery setting.

Firstly, a monther is emotionally attached to her babies, whereas the nursery worker has no real emotional attachment to them, it's a job to them, they're there for the money, and when the babies move on another load come in to replace them.

And people are paying upwards of £600 a month for their babies to be well cared for, and tbh at those costs I don't think that a ratio of 1-3 is good enough. But the nurseries are businesses. To them it's all about supply and demand, while there is a demand, more and more people will be willing to supply.

Spokette - I see your point and those mothers who are happy for their babies to be left to cry will surely agree with you. I'm not saying twin mothers provide an inadequate level of care (as I'm one myself!!!) and that the children won't turn out to be perfectly happy and charming.

However, there are other mothers who put their children in a childcare setting and would hope that their babies/toddlers would be comforted pretty quickly and not left to cry. It is those mothers who should not put their young children into a nursery setting with a 1:3 ratio!

Cory - I know what you're saying but there is something different about children of closely spaced ages, but not similar spacing. Three children under the age of three is not the same as a set of triplets. Three children of identical ages do place additional demands, especially when all three are under the age of 1! And by the way, mothers of triplets and twins do not get any extra help from the government (financial or extra childcare help).

But if they're that crap why sit by and let it happen. By not reporting it you're endorsing the system. At the least you should be honest with the parents at the end of the day.

I trust my DD's nursery. There are days when she's at home and she wants more cuddles than she gets, demands to be fed the instant she realises she's hungry and then has to wait for me to prepare something. Somedays she crys and whinges all day because she's tired or ill and even times when [gasp] I'm shouty and she'd probably prefer to be at nursery. That unfortunately is life, I cannot drop everything to be at her beck and call every minute of every day and I wouldn't expect a cm or nursery to be able to either. She has to learn patience and accept that sometimes she has to wait for what she needs / wants. I don't think that is tantamout to neglect in the home so why would it be in childcare?

FWIW, I don't think a childminder is more personal or necessarily a better option. If your DC doesn't connect with that person then there isn't an alternative. At my DD's nursery the ratio is still 1 member of staff to 2 children and she's 2.5yrs so there are plenty of adults for her to find someone she likes.

I think nursery workers will always have low pay as it has to be less than the parent is paying so they can afford it and also caring for kids is so undervalues (hence SAHMs often being branded lazy).

Tbh I wouldn't be so cettain about lack of emotional attachment- I rmemeber when sis left her first charge we all(we spent time staying with the family) wept at the loss of the littlegirl, and when the ds'sleft nurseries teachers have sytayed in touch.

TBH i rhink the one in one out thing is at maangement level,workers I know anyway do get attached- how could you not?

Actually I think many nursery nurses do get attached to the children they look after, particularly if they have siblings going through the nursery as well and they really get to know the family.

When my DCs left their first nursery we went down to a family pub with the nursery nurses and they had even bought the DCs little presents. It was lovely.

Staff from the second nursery still babysit occasionally for us and things like that.

I did wonder about the government help, Maiakins. But then you did say that mothers of multiples always had help in your experience, so I thought maybe things had changed. Perhaps you simply live in a more affluent area. Here it is really really unusual for anyone to be able to pay to employ help of any kind. Also most people can't afford nurseries.

I found a childminder a good solution as it was relatively easy to find one who was looking after children of different ages.

I must say I'm lucky enough not having to work and being able to stay home with my twin boys. However, was this not the case, DH and I would ask one of our parents to come and stay and look after the boys. I would not put them to nursery nor CMs. Just my choice and the best for my family.

Wannabe

"Firstly, a monther is emotionally attached to her babies, whereas the nursery worker has no real emotional attachment to them, it's a job to them, they're there for the money, and when the babies move on another load come in to replace them."

The DTS first carer is now their babysitter. The first word out of DT1 mouth was the carer's name, even though he was only in nursery 3 days a week. From my personal experience, the carers did have an emotional attachment to their charges. It is not on the same level as that of the parent (I would not expect it to be) but if a child was hurt, the carer would be upset by it.

I can't speak for other nurseries but the one my DS was at had a code to open the door. So I could walk in any time I liked and often turned up unannounced. I never saw any babies being left to cry or forced to nap when they didn't want to or screaming for food.

Not all nurseries are great, sure, but neither are all mothers. I see a lot of SAHMs who are frankly rubbish parents and whose kids would be better off at nursery.

Blimey, another thread on these issues.....

My thoughts in brief

• these thoughts often seem to come from agency workers, and I would humbly suggest that agency work doesn't always give you a true reflection of the whole range nursery care. My son's nursery VERY rarely uses agency workers, as they have very low staff turnover (due to being a good employer, paying above average wages, and recruiting people who care about the children), and many staff who work part time who they can call on if someone is sick. In the two years DS has been there, I think I've seen an agency worker once.

• nursery care is like cm care - some are good, some are bad. Not sure more standards and checking and inspections is going to change that, they can really only ensure that our children are safe, fed and well, we have to make up our own minds about their happiness.

• someone mentioned the Biddulph study on stress hormones - interestingly, small amounts of stress hormones are good for us, both physically and mentally, and arise in normal life situations. It's when they're elevated for too long or at ridiculous levels that it's a bad thing. DS for example is VERY tired after a day at nursery, because he does so much. I don't think that's bad for him, as long as we make time at home relaxing, secure and non-stressful. So we don't go home and jump around, we go home and read a book, have a cuddle and talk about his day.

• some people are bad stay at home mothers - I know I'm happier, more enthusiastic and better at playing with DS if I also have a part time job.

• sweeping generalisations are unhelpful, inflammatory and hurtful

We have had two childminders and one nursery. One childminder and the nursery have been fantastic - one childminder was truly terrible, and DS hated going there.

Doesn't prove anything about either CM care or nursery care one way or the other.

OP is NBU if this really is her experience. I've had my DS at both CM and nursery. Like most parents we chose both carefully and though I know his nursery is wonderful it did take him a long time until he was really, really happy - obviously he prefers being with me than strangers. Nothing surprising there.

Unfortunately, living in one of the most expensive parts of the entire world many of us have little choice but to work and pay for childcare. Out of all my friends who had CMs I was the only one who was happy with mine - that's out of about 5/6 mums. So what's a parent to do? Strap our kids to our back and go off to work?

It's useful to get an inside view on nurseries but I think the OP should have presented a more balanced viewpoint. Perhaps she has since her OP (haven't read all 13 pages!).

"Anyone who thinks they are being FORCED to put their kids (under 3's)in daycare should be screaming out that it is an injustice."

And yet if I as a single parent chose to stay at home when DS was under three I would have had to go on benefit (ever spotted the attitude towards single mothers on benefits , would have had to move house away from family and friends, leaving DS and I potentially quite isolated.

On balance I thought it better for DS to go into a childcare setting. At just over 3 now he doesn't seem too much the worse for wear (and I have a social workers stamp of approval!)

Exactly, FriarKew (like the holy name!). It's the lesser of two evils.

how do you force a child to nap anyway? (would love to know that secret)

Could someone tell me as well? I would love to force DS to nap when he is locked in cupboard at home being brought up by me.

I'm surprise this forced nap method has not been patented yet. The inventor would make zillions from all the desperate parents around the world.

ha-ha, OP says get a childmninder, 1 adult with 8 children!! NO, I'm not joking

third like nurseries someCM are fab, ours never ahd a fullqupta there- usually 2 or 3,which isn't any different fromhome

Am sure there are bad ones as well,fortuantely haven't met one yet (phew!)

I havnt been here since last night and i cant read all the tread so my apologies if i am out of place or someone has already said this.

What upsets me with these threads is that always turns to the same issue about Working mums or staying home mums. Very boring.

If someone talks about quality of childcare then is hardly against working mums. Quite the oposite really. We want better quality of childcare so THAT PARENTS CAN WORK. Simple.

Now, every time some childcare workers try to give hints they get the 'shut the fuck up'. I would react diferently. I would say :
'since you work in the industry, can you expand a bit more, *can you give us any tips on what to look for when we choose a nursery, when we should get alarmed etc..'

Every industry has 'secrets' and ways to operate. Those who work inside are the best people to know.

It is a parenting forum, we are all concern about childcare and we have the blessing of having people with childcare experience here.
Then grap the opportunity to make the most of them.

If i want advice on medicine and am lucky to have a doctor next to me i ll listen, if i meet a solicitor i ll accept that she knows more than me about law. And if i meet a childcare worker i ll try to get some tips re childcare.

Tiramissu - Good post.

Tiramissu, couldn't agree with you more.

I think the main reason the OP's been criticised was not what she said as such, more the inflammatory title and call to BAN all nurseries. Do realise she has since apologised, but not before offending/worrying lots of nursery-using parents, me among them.

A simple How to Pick a Good Nursery thread would have been a great idea.

Am inclined to agree with aspects of OP's post.

Have withdrawn my dd (when she was a baby) from two private nurseries after becoming concerned at the care she was getting. Ended up leaving work as was so unhappy about putting her back in another nursery.

Now have ds2 (age 3) in a children's centre where he gets great care from mature, well qualified teachers. This children's centre does not provide care for children under 2 as the head always tells parents who ask that children under this age do better being cared for in a home setting.

Also, I used to teach on an NNEB (then on a CACHE course). Generally a third of the students (mostly the older ones) were fantastic, a third were OK, and a third were Vicky Pollards.