to expect to use a disabled toilet when I'm out with the pram?

[CT123]

I can't use the ladies when I have my baby with me in the pram. The only thing I can do is wheel him into the disabled toilet with me. But the disabled toilets have special locks on them, which presumably disabled people have special keys for. I appreciate that they want to stop able-bodied people hogging disabled toilets but what else can I do?

salsmum (I have one of those vans, nightmare to park)
I see what you mean. if non disabled people can use disabled toilets as it is easier for them, why can't non parents or people who don't have their children with them use P&T parking bays as it is easier for them???

Toilets and parking spaces are not the same thing at all. A parking space won't require you to leave your child outside nor will it result in you having an embarrassing accident.

It's not to do with it being easier, it's to do with there being adequate facilities.

www.radar.org.uk/radarwebsite/tabid/41/default.aspx

I can't see anything on there that sees disability as some sort of optional extra for having a radar key

Hmmmmm To those who are considering getting a radar key......

In order to receive a key free of VAT an individual must provide their name and address or that of the person who will use the key and make the following declaration in the comments box on checkout:

"I declare that I/the individual name above is chronically sick or has a disabling condition and is eligible to claim VAT relief for disabled people. The key for accessible toilets being ordered is for my/their domestic and personal use only".

No mention of being a parent with a buggy/pram that you can't get into the toilet!

I didn't realise that disabled people could actually get their own key. I thought you had to ask to be let in (say by the customer service people in a shopping centre).

agree with Riven... stop using the disabled toliets and start lobbying for a large cubicle in every toliet block for pushchairs etc

SoupDragon I disagree, i Need adequate parking for the W.A.V
riven is right, parents should lobby for their own stuff.
rather than making life even more difficult for disabled people.
remember, your problem is short term, dd will always need a disabled toilet and a wheelchair.

Someone (can't remember who) a little while back wrote an article for the Times about this and it really resonated. Bottom line was that while of course there should be disabled toilets for people who have access problems it was not necessary for everyone else to avoid using them, even when (for example) there were massive queues for the 'normal' loos or when out with a buggy, small children etc. The point they were making was that whilst disabled people should have access to convenient facilities, there was no reason that they shouldn't share these facilities (or even wait to use them, occasionally), in the same way that everyone else shares and waits for public toilets.

So, YA definitely NBU

[looks for safe place to hide and prepares to be flamed]

ok then, would you like to "share" the disability as well?

It is entirely the fault of the facilities' provider. There should be an adequate 'parent and child' toilet imo - a parent with a buggy shouldn't be forced to make the decision to leave their child unattended in a public shopping centre (and this will often be a baby in a buggy AND one or more toddlers), or going to the toilet with the door open. They should be offered the same facilities as the rest of the customers.

And baby changing should clearly be in a separate room - not in the regular Ladies' toilet, or the disabled - because if it's in the disabled, then you may be inconveniencing a disabled person, if it's in the Ladies' then what do you do if you are a dad?

Parents with small children must be a significant percentage of the customers in shopping centres - a couple of dedicated 'Parent and Child' rooms with toilets, changing tables would solve the problem imo. And then there would be no argument.

Just to be clear then. If we (and I mean the group to which some of you apparently do not belong, ie 'parents') DO campaign successfully and manage to get bigger cubies for buggies etc, does that mean that those with disabilities will NEVER, EVER, use 'our' loos as they are meant to be for parents and pushchairs? Not even in an emergency?

Should registered disabled be entitled to use parent and child parking if the disabled spaces are all full (with bona fide disabled?)

Just a note on the radar key scheme. It's my understanding of that statement that you are only signing the declaration in order to qualify for a VAT free price and that if you aren't then you need to pay the full price including VAT.

notwithstanding that, I don't think non-disabled people should buy a key.

this whole debate is seeming a bit extreme now though and I think either side has just dug their heels in for the sake of not wanting to back down.

Someone using a disabled toilet (whether a shared facility or not) really isn't the end of the world (imvho) provided that a disabled person isn't being inconvenienced by it. And at the end of the day, a quick wee in a non shared toilet is always going to be quicker than two nappy changes in a shared facility.

And that aside, there is nothing, anywhere that says able bodied people can't use a disabled toilet. The building regulations state that provision should be made for disabled people, but nowhere does it state that that provision should be for their exclusive use.

I can't imagine anyone would have a problem with a disabled person using a parent and child toilet, in the same way that no-one reasonable would mind a disabled person using a P&T space. But at least there would be a reasonable option for someone with a buggy.

Lacka, you won't know if you're inconveniencing someone though will you? How do you who is disabled and who is not?

And what's to say an emergency isn't going to happen for a disabled person whilst you're using their facility?

If you haven't already, have a read of Embarrassed10's post on here...

The point I was trying to make is this...If I'm not entitled to park in a P&T bay I wouldn't and I don't the same goes for a Disabled bay if my DD isn't with me. I would not take up someone else's larger parking space simply because it would be easier and more convenient for me to do so my pram van might be larger than a car but someone else would be more needy of that space so it would be selfish of me to use. But is that really any different than P&T using disabled loo?. Or is that o.k. if boots on other foot? IYSWIM.

It would seem that parents have been campaigning for better facilities, which is why Direct Enquiries, the nationwide access register, has 'expanded since its creation to include additional information for parents such as pushchair access.'

is also a (long!) article about better design for multi use ('uni-abled') facilities as part of urban design. books.google.co.uk/books?id=MQq_V6I8B6oC&pg=RA1-PA159&lpg=RA1-PA159&dq=disabled+toilets+pus hchairs+access&source=web&ots=ojGtc5GzBM&sig=SGBTTDK6Uc-Sy3kaFXPd5ULjUgk&hl=en&ei=mNyTSY7tEdSujAezq6 ShCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PRA1-PT1,M1 here

It would be great if facilities were more wide ranging.

we are all part of the same community, whether we're disabled or not. I agree with fillybuster.

Our local supermarket has only one loo, which is about the size of our sitting room. Everyone has to queue for it.

Sorry that link was all messed up!

It was to an article about urban design, and multi use (or 'uni-abled') facilities, it is long!

books.google.co.uk/books?id=MQq_V6I8B6oC&pg=RA1-PA159&lpg=RA1-PA159&dq=disabled+toilets+pushchairs+a ccess&source=web&ots=ojGtc6DzDT&sig=5zz6VD0-yM8rYsKqdfta4vtQG4&hl=en&ei=RfiTScz7IZDRjAftk8yvCw&sa=X &oi=bookresult&resnum=9&ct=result

salsmum - its differnet because you leave a car for a longer period.

Even if you just park for 5 minutes, the disabled person arriving has no expectation that you'll come back within 5 minutes, and anyway, they probably can't wait 5 minutes near the space, cos they'd be blocking the road. that's why its unacceptable ever to use a parking space.

For years people left their children, toddlers and babies outside shops, toilets and anywhere else they couldn't get in. They also used things called legs and walked with prams rather than bleat on about buses not having enough room. Sadly we live in a nanny society where parents are too scared of their own shadow to take their eyes off their kids for 2 minutes to have a wee. Using a disabled toilet when you are not disabled is abusing the facilities. If there were soley baby changing rooms with toilet facilities in, and a disabled person used them these self same parents would bleat on about how there are toilet facilities in place for parents and disabled non parents should not use them. Being a parent is NOT a disability some may see it as an inconvenience when they have to queue a little longer, hold their bladder a little longer etc BUT for some it is not possible to do these things. All you who think it acceptable to abuse the facilities in place for disabled people try walking a mile in their shoes or their carers. Try being a 13yr old girl caring for a disabled parent and some selfish twunt who is not disabled being in the disabled toilet, you have no choice but to wheel your disabled dad into the mens toilets and then helping him into a cubicle whereas if the disabled toilet was free then you could have wheeled him in and with the assistance of the bars he would have been able to get himself onto the toilet. But oh no there was a mother with a pram and she couldn't hold it and her answer when i got my dad out of the mens toilets?

SOrry I couldn't get the pram into the ladies!

OH what a fcuking shame....you had a child through CHOICE my dad has a disabilty which is not a CHOICE

Its time Mums got over themselve, use the facilities provided for them by all means but don't abuse them!