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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to tell ds to hit this little boy back??

338 replies

Nemoandthefishes · 30/01/2009 21:11

little boy in ds class has been badly bullying one of ds friends for the last couple of months. However today he decided to punch ds in the stomach and then told him not to tell, so ds didnt until he punched him in the stomach again at which point he told the teacher whose answer was 'oh just ignore him'. So I have told ds if the little boy punches him again to hit him back usually I wouldnt have said this but ds has already been through a bullying incident since sept and only just got it sorted about 2 weeks ago.

OP posts:
TotalChaos · 31/01/2009 00:14

Don't think you are being unreasonable at all. Doesn't sound right that school are so laissez faire about all these incidents; can quite see why you are thinking of moving him.

Ronaldinhio · 31/01/2009 00:14

I love mumsnet for this...lets change the question entirely when someone doesn't agree rahter than accept that we have differing points of view

If someone "attacked" my child in front of me it would depend on who that someone was

If it was one 5 yr old to another it would be a very different circumstance than an adult attacking a child
What point are you trying to make jooly?

tw1nkley · 31/01/2009 00:15

sorry ronald I don't understand - If a maniac tried to attack your child with a knife would you jump in and try to defend your child/yourself in whatever way possible or shout help but not actually phisically do anything?

Ronaldinhio · 31/01/2009 00:16

sorry
I meant what point are you trying to make Twinkley?

TotalChaos · 31/01/2009 00:16

oh yes - that's a very good point edam has about martial arts - good for increasing confidence etc.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 31/01/2009 00:16

I've actually been in a situation where I was grabbed by a guy who tried to drag me down an alley, after I answered in the negative to his gauche sexual advances. He punched me in the face. I kicked him in the balls. I got away (with a sore face)

Sorry, but I doubt whether debating the issue with him would have had a better outcome. But that's just my experience

Ronaldinhio · 31/01/2009 00:16

how is this the same thing?

do you need to start another thread perhaps?

Joolyjoolyjoo · 31/01/2009 00:20

No sorry- the point I was trying to make is that the things you teach your kids now are the things that stay with them for the rest of their life. I was taught to hit back (yup, I'm THAT old!!) But if violence is NEVER acceptable, and you teach the "turn the other cheek" philosophy, at what point do you teach your children that it is ok to defend yourself??

tw1nkley · 31/01/2009 00:24

Ron - can I call u ron?

The problem is that what we teach them at age 5 they learn for life.

If we teach them that they are not allowed to defend themselves at all where will it end up? What you don't what is either extreme - Kids who can't stand up for themeselves cos theyve been told not to or those being agressive - middle line would be great!! -got to go very very late here, got busy day 2morrow.

tw1nkley · 31/01/2009 00:25

ooohh crossed almost identical threads!!! High five jooly.

Guess I must be getting old too
night night!!

Ronaldinhio · 31/01/2009 00:29

sorry jooly I was replying to twinkley and her knife weilding maniac again
my crap posting etiquette...apologies

I dunno...I think that I teach them that there are very viable options that work really well and a range of safety nets in place before violence. Also I would hope that like me they will be aware of how to defend themselves and the importance of not using violence at first instance but rather as a last resort...something to have at the back of your arsenal not the front as it leaves you nowhere to escalate it to.

From all of my mates though verbal bullying has haunted them longer and more visibly than violent...just my expereince though

Qally · 31/01/2009 00:29

I don't know who's right in this one, tbh. I mean, in theory I'm vehemently against, because teaching violence as a solution to anything is wrong - I don't want a child to think violence is ever the answer - but in practice, I know kids who hit back early aren't picked on in future. The kids who don't hit back are. Hard one to call, and miserable to be in the situation of having to. So I'm sitting on the fence.

I do know that asking if someone would be prepared to hit a rapist, or another adult attacking their child, is about as relevant as asking if they'd punch a five year old who anoyed them. Presumably the answer is "yes" and "no" most emphatically in both cases; and in neither instance does it have the slightest bearing on the OPs query.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 31/01/2009 00:35

No, but if you ARE a 5yo hitting a 5yo, it's a similar situation to an adult hitting another adult who attacked them. I think that is the comparison that people are trying to make!

Ronaldinhio · 31/01/2009 00:35

ta qally thought I was going mad with the rapist attacker stuff

i don't know either as is abundantly clear from my posts

Ronaldinhio · 31/01/2009 00:40

no jooly as some are children and are without adult reasoning/planning/abilites to express themselves
and some are adults with the ability to see the full action/consequence of what they are doing

not the same at all
very fuzzy logic indeed

Joolyjoolyjoo · 31/01/2009 00:47

Well, my 5yo must be very advanced then!! I think that is a bit patronising to say that a 5yo can't understand the diffenence between defending themselves and generally being violent.

I know my 5yo knows the reasoning and consequences- and if she doesn't I can help with that. But I can't be ther in the playground.

Even with my 3 kids, I have let them figure out their differences for themselves where they can. My 5yo doesn't hit (and was told by me NOT to hit), but is getting hit by her 14mo brother. My dd2 (3.6) is far more assertive, and NEVER gets hit by her little brother! Now, obviously I am trying to teach the little guy not to hit at all, but in the meantime dd1 is getting all the flak- he doen't hit dd2. I can only imagine she has (unseen by me) made it clear that she won't tolerate it.

Children are natural creatures. we try to impose unnatural rules and regulations on them, and sometimes, I think we do them a disservice, that's all

ChippingIn · 31/01/2009 00:50

YANBU There is a world of difference between condoning 'violence' and empowering him to defend himself.

There has been a lot of 'tosh' on here about turning the other cheek (While the bully keeps on hitting him in the stomach and the teachers ignore it??), going through the correct channels (well, presumably the OP would like it settled this side of her DS's 21st) and him then turning out to be a violent thug - bollocks.

OP - I would def sign him up for some martial arts, just to give him that bit more confidence.

If you don't think he would hit the bully (some kids just can't bring themselves to do it) just tell him to pretend to turn around, turn back quickly and give the bully a great big shove - which will hopefully sit him on his bum and will hurt his pride more than his bum.

Teaching children to stand up for themselves is important

(What did you do about the kid who had his hands around your DS's neck in the playgound?? I would have taken him by the scruff of his neck to the Headmaster and demanded the parents be rung there and then. Little Shite. What I would have wanted to do is another thing .........

Qally · 31/01/2009 00:59

"No, but if you ARE a 5yo hitting a 5yo, it's a similar situation to an adult hitting another adult who attacked them"

Strongly disagree. Kids are learning how to negotiate the world and make their way in it - even in late teens brains are still developing reasoning and empathetic abilities. Five year olds may well not know better ways to organise their behaviour. That's where schools and parents come in - and actually, learning that kids who don't thump are okay to pick on in future is just passing the problem on to someone else's child. I appreciate that as a parent that's better than it being your own - believe me, I do - but it doesn't help the aggressor learn to curb their fists.

"Children are natural creatures. we try to impose unnatural rules and regulations on them, and sometimes, I think we do them a disservice, that's all"

In civil wars, women are always raped in large numbers, and people loot, rob and kill with impunity, just because they can - just as some are enormously kind and courageous. Children are humans, learning how to negotiate an adult life. They aren't a different species. I am really pretty grateful to live in a world where natural urges towards violence are tempered by social constraints and taught kindness, tbh. Martial arts are very, very big on self control. They aren't remotely natural.

Qally · 31/01/2009 01:01

By the way, my take is that the teachers are shockingly at fault, here. Repeat - I don't blame the OP for wanting her kid to hit back. It doesn't solve the problem, and it may worryingly create the impression in her child's mind that war, war is better than jaw, jaw... but it may also stop her child being the chosen punchbag. Don't think this has an easy solution.

KerryMumbles · 31/01/2009 01:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 31/01/2009 01:16

Maybe women ARE raped in civil war situations, but that is not what I am thinking of when I say "natural behaviour"- just because it happens in THAT particular situation doesn't mean it is natural.

As a parent, I subscribe to the "at the time" rule. I don't store up punishments, or make future threats. How then do you prescribe for a situation where you are not present and where one child is punching and hurting another? It's not a question of war, war or jaw, jaw! It's a question of dealing with a situation right here right now. Even if the OPs ds decided to hit back in this particular situation, do you honestly think this means he would not seek to find a reasonable solution to a different scenario later on??

I'm not saying that we should all have a blanket policy of hitting first and talking later, just that our dc should have the ok to defend themselves should the need arise/. And, yes, at 5yo I think mine could (and does) understand the difference between responding to a phsyical threat and unneccessary violence.

Qally · 31/01/2009 01:24

"Even if the OPs ds decided to hit back in this particular situation, do you honestly think this means he would not seek to find a reasonable solution to a different scenario later on??"

Yes. Kids learn by what works - you can't expect a five year old child being attacked to carefully calibrate every situation before reacting. And we are straying ever further off my point, which is that you comparing a rapist with a five year old in the playground is ludicrous. There's a reason one is a serious crime, and the other something a teacher should get off their backside to resolve.

BlackEyedDogstar · 31/01/2009 01:30

sorry to be another one to confound the don't hit back ever it'll all end in tears group, but age 9 I also saw off a big bully with a well placed smack in the face. The first and last time I've hit anyone, I will add.

I

TinkerBellesMumandFiFi2 · 31/01/2009 02:35

I wish someone had told me at five to hit back, maybe I wouldn't have had to do it when I was in year 9 instead! My rule now is you can say what you want to me but you only get one chance to hit me. My girls will be told the same.

piscesmoon · 31/01/2009 08:37

I agree TinkerBelles. I have never been hit,and I wasn't smacked as a child so physical violence is shocking to me. I know that I would never put up with it, if someone were to hit me once they would never get the chance to do it again.
Bullies pick up signals, this is why abusive men get away with it, they home in on partners who will let them get away with it. They are not consciously doing this-they are very subtle signals.
My DSs have never been in a fight, they would never hit out first but no one has the right to hit them and there is no earthly reason why they should get away with it, merely because they think they can!
As it is happening through school I would try the proper channels, but in the days that children just played out, unsupervised by adults,they had to work things out for themselves. I am not sure that it necessarily a good thing to always have adults to sort things out.
I don't think that you can always turn the other cheek, even the most submissive, gentle people have a snapping point and the result after years of abuse is often worse than a quick punch at the start.