to feel deeply uncharitable, unchritian an a bit fecked off with the parent of the squalling brat at the carol service this evening?

[DisasterArea]

don't usually mind children in church at all. but....
if a small child whines, mons, cries and doesn't show any signs of shutting up or going to sleep during an adult oriented service, not a family or crib or nativity service would you think its mother wold perhaps take it out after the first 45 minutes it whining and moaning and crying?the church in question has a crech. it has a room with sound piped in for parents to use to enjoy he service while minding their own children. it has services which are specifically for families and children. and it has quiet, peaceful services that appeal to adults wanting a bit of peace nd contemplation without listening to someone elses over tired and miserable child.
AIBU? perhaps a little but do you see my point? and if i have a point why do i now feel unchristian and guilty for seding bad vibes he way?

sorry avoidance of which question

Sorry again - I answered for FAQ there.

LOL.I think we're all getting confused.

Edam - I think that's a great example of how to be supportive to families worshipping together. We have a box full of crayons etc for similar occasions.

yes we do have quiet worship - Evening Worship, Evensong and Taize are all "quiet worship" services.

And yes I do often subject the congregation to an hour of perhaps not screaming the whole way through (even DS3 can't manage that) but certainly noisy and often whinging. Hence the reason I said I was going to leave........and was told no I wasn't.

I find a cattle prod to be most effective.

I KNOW!!! Stop it Northern!!

It's my bedtime. DH has just come downstairs, seen me on Mumsnet, rolled his eyes and said I've to tell you all that I'm right and you're wrong and would I please come to bed cos he's got an early start in the morning

PG saddles up her high horse and gallops off - night night all!

Was there no option between either letting him scream his head off or leaving permanently?

ooooo

before you go Paolo........

I have a confession to make..............NL's reference to VERY quiet service, or quiter than they'd hoped for are because I'm also the church organist .

I thought his noise was being an issue for others in the congregation, said I would step down and leave the church (as he won't go into the creche even with me - I've tried it during the sermons). Was told (basically) to stop being so silly, that he wasn't a problem at all and that they wouldn't let me step down either.

I suspect you being the organist may have had something to do with their response.

You are right, Northern. Never saw her again (service was United Reformed and we, um, aren't, but were invited via the playgroup) but will always remember how lovely she was.

Some friends of ours left felt tips and colouring books in the aisles at their wedding (happy clappy and VERY long). I was horrified! Visions of felt tip all over my Best Frock.

Good night all - thanks for an illuminating discussion and remember - you and your children are always welcome at a church near you!

And remember consideration for others is never a bad thing.

not at all - I have a "relief" organist who currently covers at several diffeent churches, but who would have been quite happy to take on the roll full time from me. He has no childcare problems for choir practices, has more experience than me and has more contacts for organinsing "big" music things in the church than me.

I have seen the minutes from the PCC meeting, the issues of children and noise was discussed in general as well as in relationship to my DS3 - and the consensus was still the same. That those parents who wished to attend church but had children of any age where they are bound to be noisy should be supported and welcome dwith open arms, as they (and i quote) "are the future of our church".

Yes and parents who are considerate enough to remove their children in such situations also have children who are ''the future of the church''

It'd certainly put me off from going.

Have to say though, it must be rather difficult to remove your ds if you're the organist.

how are they future of the church if they don't attend the services and learn (by watching the older children and the adults) what appropriate behaviour is?

Tonight the infant school "choir" sang an item during the service. For the first time ever receptioni children were included in this choir. And you nkw what you could tell just by looking at them sitting for the reste of the service after they'd sang their song which children had attended church since they were very young, and which hadn't (for whatever reason).

They sat impecably all the way through, while the other children fidgeted and whispered to each other.

and anyhow, that is what our PCC agreed, obviously there wil be otheres who think they shouldn't be seen heard in church until they are old enough to sit nicely and quietly all the way through the service.

And FWIW almost all of the parents who have very young chidlren at our church are involved with the running/organising of things that happen in and around the church.

if they didn't attend (because of their DC) then not only would the congregation lose the cildren, but the adults as well.

They do attend the services, they are removed until they can be calmed.

And how is learning that it's fine to scream your head off in church regardless of the inconvience to others appropriate behaviour?

haha "removed until calmed" for a lot of children means they (and their parents) miss the entire service, then they just stop coming (I mean what's the point if you child sneezes and you feel you have to rush them outside so as not to disturb other people

And I love this assumption that all children making noise are screaming. I've attended church for nearly my whole life, and I don't think I've ever heard a child scream for any length of time (well apart from DS3 at his Christening when I can to restrain him so he could be blessed and Christened )

exactly FAQ, welcome the children, keep the adults, have next generation too.simple!

welcome means embrace as part of your congregation, not just make alternative arrangements for them

A visiting minister once said "To anyone who says that children are the church of tomorrow, you are wrong, they are the church of TODAY"

(This minister also coped very well with an 8 yr old child who was attending SS, no parental church involvement, who mid service piped up "Miss, is it true that jesus is a ghost, because he died and came back again")

Screaming.moaning,wailing,crying,yelling,whining etc take your pick.

Either way I can't understand you going on about acceptable behaviour, as I don't consider teaching one's children that's it fine to do any of the above for a long time in church.

How does teaching them that benefit them?

"Have to say though, it must be rather difficult to remove your ds if you're the organist. "

Yes just a little - I just sit and cringe when I see some well meaning old dear escort him to the creche, as he LOATHES it in there and I know that within seconds of being in there he'll scream like he's being attacked

Oh but I did enjoy tonight, there's nothing quite like some of the fine carols, with fine organ and descant setting belted out on the organ with a choir (my how I'd love to be able to keep them - but work contraints for most mean that regular practice just can't happen unless it's something big like Christmas) and a full congregation.

Boy does it lift the spirits (and drown out any noisy children - of which there were several tonight because of the presecence of the 2 school choirs) .

also in our church i would point out that it's the CHILDREN who have brought the ADULTS not vice versa. Started growing when I invited the local Rainbows to come to Christingle service, one family have been coming ever since,(3 years) another 2 families who had DC at nursery with mine but went off to different school started attending so kids could still see each other at sunday school, others have come through the Toddler group we run. Another family with 3 DC were put onto us by a local minister who suggested ours was the right place for them, with having the kids. BUT because we have kids and are seen as active and growing,we are also attracting new adults too - eg a young couple who are both teachers. And a middle aged couple recently moved into the area and not happy at the church they had found came snooping round one day, saw we had a creche area at the back of church and kids work in the sunday school room and decided we were the place to be! This was on the very day we had got together with the new minister and shifted all the furniture to make the creche area, if not a sign of God blessing us for getting our priorities right, what is it?

when I invite the cubs to harvest, easter, mothers day etc, the leader says "they say is it at the friendly church". nuff said.

noise isn't just restricted to unhappy noises you know (recalls shouts of "MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUM" "MUUUM" MUM!" during Evensong a little while back). But that's what toddlers do (happy and unhappy noises) - they also like to copy older children. So if they're allowed to stay in church and the parent attempts to enourage them to be quiet, they do eventually start copying the older children and sitting down with them.

(well at least that's what DS1 and 2 did - although DS1 was 3 when I started playing their so had already learned how to behave - and admittedly I was still with exH when DS2 came along so he was able to sit with him - but I can't see that DS3 is going to be any different from most of the other children I've watched grow from babies to school age children learning the appropriate bhaviour as they got older.

LOL at "happy noise" am reminded of DS 3yo singing "they're 2, they're 4, they're 6 they're 8...etc" or quietly telling himself a story

OH I MUST tell you this one....a little head peeks over the creche "wall" and shouts "Mummy, bring me a bit of bread back!" (normally said 4 yo would have gone up with parents for a blessing at communion time, but on this occasion had already been and stood with the older ss kids, learned behaviour by copying, as FAQ said. Everyone smiled, no one was horrified, and the minister gave mummy the extra bit of bread to take back)