to feel deeply uncharitable, unchritian an a bit fecked off with the parent of the squalling brat at the carol service this evening?

[DisasterArea]

don't usually mind children in church at all. but....
if a small child whines, mons, cries and doesn't show any signs of shutting up or going to sleep during an adult oriented service, not a family or crib or nativity service would you think its mother wold perhaps take it out after the first 45 minutes it whining and moaning and crying?the church in question has a crech. it has a room with sound piped in for parents to use to enjoy he service while minding their own children. it has services which are specifically for families and children. and it has quiet, peaceful services that appeal to adults wanting a bit of peace nd contemplation without listening to someone elses over tired and miserable child.
AIBU? perhaps a little but do you see my point? and if i have a point why do i now feel unchristian and guilty for seding bad vibes he way?

Is there nothing that would cause you to consider removing a tantruming or screaming child from the service?

no I don't make any attempt to leave.

I did attempt to leave the church because of the problem but was told in no uncertain terms that I was being very silly wanting to leave becase my youngest DS is still of an age where (to be blunt) he's a PITA.

Correct me if I'm wrong FAQ - but if you left the congregation would find themselves worshipping - ahem - very much more quietly then they expected?

awww Northern you're gone and spoiled my fun

Or they might even find themselves actually enjoying the service.

I understand that children of that age do behave like that but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be dealt with appropriately by the parents.
Your vicar/priest/reverend, deleter as applicable sounds too tolerant and doesn't seem to be considering the other churchgoers.

It's all about knowing the full story isn't it?

Look Paolo and falcon - you're welcome at my church any time and you can cough, fidget, noisely turn Bible pages, DROP Bibles, open sweets, nip in and out to the loo and receive text messages as much as you like.

Or perhaps they would find themselves worshipping quietly as they HAD expected!

I'm genuinely at your determination press on with your need to worship at the expense of others who may wish to worship in peace. This lack of compassion is really strange for someone who is supposed to be a Christian. It's so sad.

oh it's not just the vicar - infact the entire PCC discussed the issue at great length and agreed unanimously that him making noise wasn't a major issue for anyone (and my gawd there's so right fuddy duddy traditionalists on the PCC I can tell you) and so I should't leave the church, but instead be support more while he gets through the noisy stage and is old enough to send off too the Sunday School (he won't go into the creche - so wilil bypass that)

I probably could do all of those things but it wouldn't make it right. It'd still be bloody rude and inconsiderate.

'Too tolerant'???

All are equal in the sight of God. None need feel ashamed about the things that make us human - even including being noisy - because God sees and loves everything about us. If you think that being quiet in church is going to get you further than knowing and trusting God in your life then you need to spend a bit of time reconsidering your understanding of Christianity.

So if noise is not an issue for your congregation, why on earth do you have quiet worship?

They discussed the noise your ds was making? Just him, or children making noise in general?

Perhaps God doesn't care but the other churchgoers certainly might.

no they specifically discussed the issue of me saying I was going to be leaving. It was all about meeeeeeeee

sometimes the churches that provide BOTH types of service are the worst offenders though, because this assumes that EVERYONE knows the protocol, when some casual attendees would just expect people to be pleased to see them in church at Christmas or any other time. Is this ALWAYS genuinely done with the families in mind? NO, it is often done to satisfy the people who don't want children to be seen or heard in church. Children get mixed messages - they are welcome in church but only on certain days? is that not discrimination?

One of our local churches has just shut down having struggled for several years to have 2 consecutive services, one primarily for a small handful of OAPs who have been going for years, then a less formal one for teens/families. They would NOT get together even for special occasions, a dreadful example of how church should NOT be. Neither side would contemplate a combined service with aspects of both in it, even tho this would have meant they had viable numbers to stay open!

We are talking about a Christmas service, if it were advertised as "a quiet hour at the Cross" on good friday, that would be different. This parent struggled with an unhappy toddler in church rather than give up, presumably because she wants to get her priorities right/set the kid a good example.

Actually my understanding of quiet worship is not worship which excludes all noise but rather worship that uses a particular tempo of music and style of praying and speaking that is designed to take you back into your self to refresh rather than bursting out in exuberance.

Do you have quiet worship or not???

And showing the child that other people's needs matter to and that they also need is consideration would be setting a bad example?

oh yes indeed NL (quiet worshp) quite different from The First Nowell and Hark the Herald which were played all stops out of the organ tonight - oooo was fabulous - we even had a choir for it!

Oh and a 'quiet' service is not church code for 'keep the kids out' - though obviously that's what some here think.

Falcon - are you really asking me whether God's opinion matters less to me than that of my fellow chuch attender?

From the newsletter:

"St. Paul considers that we are people who are called to rejoice and be happy at all times. As we are happy, we glimpse the rosy-fingered dawn in the rose-coloured vestments worn today, the rose-coloured candle on the Advent wreath, and even in the name given to this day, Gaudete Sunday, ?Rejoice Sunday?.
Sometimes, caught up in the day-to-day turmoil of our lives, we forget this aspect of our faith. Too often we give the impression of being a miserable people. It does us good to be reminded of the great blessings for which we are called always to be grateful and thankful"

Yeeessssss!

First time I ever took ds to a church service it was a carol service - they invited everyone who came to the playgroup at the church hall. Ds was entranced but in typical 2yo style wanted to investigate, blow out all the candles, dance in the aisles. It was a children's service and we were towards the back so I tried to strike a balance between reasonable expectations of a 2yo and irritating the hell out of anyone else.

At one point ds and his best mate got a bit too noisy and I was about to admonish them when an elderly lady swooped down and very kindly but firmly asked them to calm down, shush a bit and play nicely. She drew their attention to something, I forget what. It worked like a dream - because she was a stranger they jumped to attention.

I was very impressed by her timing and her ability to be kind but firm AND get the right result from two children she'd never even met.

Sorry Paolo - yes we do - we had a candlelit carol service last week - which I took all my children too

FAQ - I'm taking your avoidance of the question as no, we don't have quiet worship, and no, I don't subject everyone else in the congregation to an hour of my screaming child

No but there is a happy medium. It is possible to be considerate of others and still keep him happy I'm sure.