in thinking that if it's generally accepted that the family is usually the best place to raise children....

[gabygirl]

...... (except in cases where there is serious abuse and neglect) when it comes to the care system, why so many people seem to abandon this principle when it comes to the issue of boarding school?

I haven't been able to stop thinking about this issue all morning. Last night I sat up until midnight watching that documentary on channel 4 about the boys who were abused at Caldicott. It stirred up so many sad feelings in me and made me cry. I felt so sorry for those men.

I went to boarding school myself at the age of 11 and although I wasn't sexually abused, I was so starved of intimacy and affection in my relationships for the next 5 years that it really affected my sexuality when I finally became sexually active at 15.

Did anyone else see it? The other thing that was sad about the film was the men's desperation to protect their parents against the knowledge that they'd exposed them to abuse, and in one case turned a blind eye to it even after they knew it had happened.

"enhanced CRB check and you don't last long in your job if you're no good" would certainly not be good enough for me to entrust my child to someone on!

A foster carer not only has CRB but also a professional and in depth assessment, and professional and in-depth training. I must say if Houseparents WERE assessed and trained in that way that would be one step forward.

And of course it's also true that boarding schools are better regulated and regularly and rigorously inspected; and that some people who went to board in the 70s and 80s may not have any issues with their time at school.

I was discussing this with mil last night, and she said that the pastoral care was what drew her to the school at which dh and his brother boarded; as an experienced Year Head in the state system, she knew even then in the 70s and 80s what she was looking for.

scaryteacher - having a CRB check confirms one thing: that you don't have a criminal record.

It doesn't in any way confirm that you are emotionally suited to parenting other people's children, and I'm really taken aback that you would offer this as evidence to this end.

As for people not lasting long in the job if they're not good at it - sorry but this is rubbish. There are plenty of inadequate and emotionally odd people working in teaching who continue for decades. And not just teachers - our matron at the first school I went to had been there for 20 years when I arrived. She was the least demonstrative person I had ever met. She never put her arm around me once, even when I was sick and crying for my mum. I can honestly say that the majority of adults supervising us at boarding school were not people I'd feel comfortable with leaving my children with now for long periods of time.

"I hate that undertone in the op, you're a bad parent if you choose boarding school"

There was no undertone in my post insinuating that people who put their children in boarding schools because they are 'bad parents'. My parents are wonderful, loving people. They had no experience of boarding school themselves as they had both left day school at 14. They wanted what they thought was best for us, and they believed what they were told by other people and what they read in the school brochures - that boarding school was educationally necessary and emotionally beneficial for us . It was very hard for my mum to let us go and she was clinically depressed about it at the time. I actually feel sad about the whole thing because I think she was damaged by the whole thing too.

I think parents generally choose what they think is best for their children. I would just question to whether they are basing those decisions on balanced information - remembering that independent schools are commercial organisations with a vested interest in selling their product to parents, and unless parents seek it out, no one is there to put an alternative viewpoint. It's also the case that people who've been to boarding school themselves aren't always aware of how their childhood experiences have affected their emotional development as adults - not everyone is very emotionally literate, and it's quite common for people to block out or repress aspects of their emotional past that they feel uneasy about or have difficulty understanding.

Boarding school is simply the cultural 'norm' in some social groups, and there's an unquestioning acceptance that it's good for children.

And it's not just about the individual - this is about the principle of what is best for children generally. I'm just asking why - when we have a mass of psychological and developmental research showing that families are almost always the best places to raise children, we are so tolerant of middle class children being removed from the family and parented by people who, by and large, have no training in this area (because being a teacher does NOT qualify you to parent other people's children).

"You plainly have no idea what it's like to see your children move from school to school, having to drop and pick up sets of friends and go through god knows how many house moves, teacher changes etc etc."

My parents moved very regularly during my childhood and before I went to boarding school I changed school and country every 2 or 3 years. It's not easy, for anyone, but for me it was preferable to being separated from my family. I went to loads of culturally mixed schools up to the age of 11 and found it very exciting. I enjoyed feeling special and learned to make friends quickly. It's not always bad.

Nooka - you clearly put a hugely high value on independence in children and I agree with you that boarding school fosters this. But there is a difference between being financially and socially independent and being emotionally independent. I left home very early too and was supporting myself completely from the age of 19. I went to university late so I could go as an independent student and not need to take money from my parents. I held them emotionally at an arms length for well over a decade. It was only when I had my first child that I 'rebonded' with my mum. Now at 42 I'm hugely emotionally reliant on her and my dad, and she on me. I think families being emotionally reliant on each other is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing, though I can see that if you have a poor relationship with a parent it's something that you probably don't want.

For anyone who's interested, I find this site yesterday. There are some moving first hand accounts of life at boarding school from children.

here

That's what you entrust your child to on a daily basis, every time you leave them at school. Teachers believe it or not, do get professional and in depth training in all the issues surrounding boarding if they are going to be house parents - everything from child protection to health and safety and all points inbetween, and a good dose of common sense goes a long way as well.

How many houseparents do you actually know SB?
I don't understand, if you are not going to send your children to board, why this exercises you so much? Yes, pastoral care is one of the things I would look at carefully, as I would for any school; but I may well send my ds to board, so I started looking at this a while ago.

It was a 2 year training for me to teach, PGCE plus NQT year....and I had to pass both. Much more than the training I had to be a parent, apart from ante-natal classes, I can't remember any formal training, CRB check, or in-depth assessment or professional training for that matter before I was allowed to be solely responsible for a new and far more dependent life than that of teenagers who board.

Do you trust others mums to look after your dcs; do they need all the aforementioned training before your dc goes for a playdate?
There is regulation in place to protect the children, and they are far less naive than when I was at school in the late 70s/early 80s and got groped by Mr Jones the Welsh woodwork teacher. If that happened now, the kids would shout and rightly so, whichever type of school they attend.

OK, knees have unlocked, so back to scrubbing the oven in preparation for mil Christmas.

GG - can't say I've met inadequate people in teaching. I've met plenty of emotionally odd people though from ALL walks of life, and lots were parents, so I don't think you can beat teachers with that particular stick.

You evidently had a bad experience boarding, and feel that it has damaged you, and I am sorry for that; but equally, I know people who were at boarding school prior to you, at the same time as you, and after you, and are there now, who only have positive things to say about their time as a boarder, and who still have close and loving relationships with their parents, spouses and children.

You had a bad experience with boarding - I had bad experiences with my Dad; I can't change what happened, but I can move on from it.

Again it depends on what suits the individual - we moved every two years from when I started infants to when I was 3rd year junior (I'm the same age as you), so I think that's year 5; and I loathed it. I hated having to leave friends, and make new ones, and get used to new food, and new surroundings and new teachers, especially when you moved during a school year and all the cliques had already formed. It made me feel sick, and I was glad when Dad got Portsmouth appointments for a while and it stopped. You evidently enjoyed moving, so we are different.

I would suggest our attitudes to boarding are different as well. Whilst I know there are pros and cons to boarding, for me, the pros outweigh the cons for my family, in our circumstances. If ds boards, then we will research the school carefully, looking at the pastoral side very carefully, and taking soundings from those we know in the boarding world, and from those whose dcs attend the schools, and from the boarders themselves.

In boarding school you cant escape any bullies, whether fellow pupils or teachers. Thats what I find disturbing.

That's what concerns me too NMC. I was badly bullied at school and the thought of a child never being able to get away from their tormentors is awful.

I agree with NMC (I seem to sway like a weathercock on this thread). When I was bullied at school I would always tell myself that soon, soon the day will be over and I'll be sitting at home round the dinner table with my mum and dad and my brothers and that's the safest place there is. Things would have felt very different if I'd been sharing living quarters with my tormentors.

My own dd is 12 and I do think it is good for her to be able to come home and spill to me when she's had a bad day.

I also enjoy the fact that she is part of the local community, people all different ages an backgrounds, and that she is learning about running a home and being a couple from observing her dad and me.

Also, don't quite get how independence is fostered by living in an institution where you have to be in at tea-time and everything is catered for and planned for by adults. I had much more freedom as a teenager at a comp and so will my daughter.

For people here in Australia - it means their children get a quality or in fact any higher education - ie secondary school. Some children love too far away from schools to attend as day pupils so they board. The families that I know who have done it for this - have produced well rounded well educated children.

Scaryteacher - I also have a PGCE and am a qualified teacher.

I still don't think that qualifies me for the role of substitute parent to other people's children.

Foster parents are subject to a very close examination of their home, their attitudes, their mental and physical health and their relationships - because it's recognised that people adopting a parental role in regard to children that are not their own are in a unique position of trust and influence.

scaryteacher I have tried to explain, as you once said "in simple terms" why there is a difference between sending your child to day school, and boarding! The examples you give are simply not comparable. And if you can't see it I really am wasting my typing hand!

Actually I do still think it would be a really good way to approach boarding TBH - the foster parent analogy. There is no other formal basis on which parents can give over 24 hr care of their kids in this country, that has so little assessment and training etc as boarding school. Ofsted would certainly not compare in any way shape or form, to a social services style assessment and training...Maybe that would be a way forward - I don't suppose even a parent who is happy to board their kids now, on the basis we currently have, would mind it being more in-depth!

But foster parents look after children who have mostly been removed from deeply dysfunctional homes. They care for very damaged children with needs well beyond those of your average 13 year old going to boarding school. Of course they need special training! I really don't think it is a very helpful analogy.

I think all kids of independence are important for teenagers, and am worried by how many young people I know are heading off to university with their parents practically in tow. Some of the mothers I know at work ring their children every day, sort out each and every one of their problems, and continue very hands on parenting from afar. I don't think that is healthy at all. Of course going away to board is not the only way to be independent, and in some ways you are cosseted quite a bit, but certainly for older teens I don't think being away from home is a major problem. btw I may have had problems with my mother as a teen, but I am actually very close to my family, and speak with them every week (obviously I don't visit them so often as I live on a different continent). In fact my brother, who boarded from 13 is probably the closest to my mother, and the most family orientated of my siblings.

Nooka - that's true, but that's not the only reason why foster parents need training. Disregarding the training - they need careful vetting because they are in positions of intimacy and trust with other people's children - far more so than teachers working in a day school. My personal feeling is that I know many adults who are good parents to their own children and thoroughly nice people. However, I wouldn't particularly want these people parenting my child, nice as they are, because I don't know enough about their values, about how they react under pressure, about their understanding of issues surrounding adolescent sexuality and mental health, and their attitudes towards race.

In any case, a good few children at boarding school have things in their background that are difficult. Just a couple of examples - eating disorders is much more common among upper middle class girls and young women , and many children in boarding school are from separated and divorced families. At my school there were people who'd experienced sexual abuse, who were self-harming, who were depressed, and who were taking drugs and abusing alcohol. Under age sex was rife. I don't think this is uncommon.

I do think that some of the points you make about older teens though are fair - and I have fewer misgivings about young adults (over 16's) boarding than I do about younger children, particularly those who are sent before they're 12.

I haven't thread all the thread, but I think some of the comments are deeply naive. For example the school I work at has a small number of children who board. Their parents love them very much, but there aren't many schools in the country that cater for children who are both profoundly Deaf and have learning difficulties.

These children are weekly boarders and often travel huge distances to see their parents at the week end. These children appear to be happy and well adjusted.

At university I met people whose parents were in the armed forces and were sent to boarding school. They were happy and well adjusted.

I think that problems arise when children are sent to boarding school with out a good reason. For example my granmother was sent to boarding school because her step mother hated her guts.

Oh I agree, there have to be really extreme reasons for boarding at primary school age, and I think this is now quite unusual. All the things you mention happened at my day school. Most of the girls (I was at an all girl's school) did not turn to their parents for help, but to their friends. Foster parents are frequently in positions where they are on their own with a troubled child. This is much less likely to be the case in a school setting (for example apart from sixth formers, children do not have their own bedrooms).

I think one of the things to bear in mind when you are asking teachers to also act as parents is that to be a good teacher involves a certain amount of distance. I enjoyed good relationships with my classes and part of that is showing your human side, having a sense of humour etc but at ALL times there was a line they didnt cross. Clearly I have a line as a parent, but it is not in the same place, not even in the same dimension if that makes any sense.

I would not dream for instance of stroking the hair of a child as I passed etc as you might do with your own. There is a subtle but important difference in how you interact with children who arent yours. Now if you children see alot of their real family this may not have much effect, but for long periods at a time particularly if they are not happy it is an issue.

Conversely the more you see your own family ie weekly boarding etc the less you may bond with the other kids, day or weekly boarders at our school were always on the outside as all the social action happened at the weekends.

I agree, the day children had their own houses and quite separate lives at my (mostly) boarding school, and dh said he didn't really know the boarders at his (mostly day) school. dn is a weekly boarder, and that seems to the the norm there. I think it is a good option if distance is the problem, or your child really wants the specialisms on offer.

I just don't agree with the pro boarders. For some children it's fine but for far too many it changes them beyond recognition in their internal psyche particularly if they board at a young age. The people who love them are sending them away. They cannot go to a parent for a cuddle if there's a problem. It causes them to draw into themselves and have to pretend to get along with others. It causes problems in terms of relationships in later life. They are harder, less able to trust and love. I see it all the time. Most parents realise this and boarding numbers have dropped and day places risen.

Of course teenagers often withdraw into their bedrooms at home even as some of mine did but at least I was there every day and aware of their day, waht they did and they had an escape if there were problems with someone in the school. It's the being there fairly constantly which is particularly hard for those who have problems there and do read the boarding school survivors' association link I put above. I don't think anyting now is any different at all in terms of the eseence of parental rejection and being sent away however good the psychology of the teachers, however warm the duvets, however much your parents are allowed to come there at weekends and watch you play sport. You are still in essence separated from them and made independent earlier than is probably wise.

Life is never perfect. The arguements against boarding work well in La La land. In La La Land there are no children with special needs.

If you live in the Midlands and the nearest school that caters for your special needs child is 50 miles away then you might have to send them away to board at a really early age. It is the only way of giving the child a future.

Can I qualify everything I have said by saying I am genuninely not having a go at people on here who are considering boarding their kids. We are a forces famiy now, I am of expat-brat upbringing, I know first hand the situations that lead to these choices.

The current children being discussed on this thread are clearly well loved and that will no doubt be the over whelming legacy of their childhood. Some of being moved to write on this thread is no doubt a cathartic rant about something I normally rarely think about.

Also can I make the point to posters who feel that because my experience of boarding was in the 80s it is not valid, I would be astonished if this generation of children are all clean living straightlaced examples of society. We drank, alot, we had underaged sex, we smoked in insane places and the years that came ofter me were into drugs. If you are boarding the opportinities are I think easier to come by, although also possibly less straighforward to achieve. The teachers go to sleep at night and you are physically far enough away from them to take advantage.

I am surprised that people still think there is a blanket answer for every child, family and set of circumstances.

I don't know, my experience was that there was more drinking and drugs in the social network around my day school, although possibly less sex (but then things were more private, so that may well not be the case). Mainly because although some of the children at boarding school were very rich and had large allowances, most of us girls (it was mixed in the sixth form only) lost our access to jobs. I have a letter from my mother in my first weeks of school where she is complaining that I was asking for money (not for anythig nefarious, I was just hungry!). Previously I had babysat for two or three nights every week and was very flush. Lots of my friends pre-boarding school had Saturday jobs, or working boyfriends, so we were in that sense both risher and more independant.

Xenia, I am sure that there were lots of people for whom boarding school was a terrible experience, and that it marked them for life. But there are also going to be lots of people for whom that is not the case. Many of them you might never know had been to boarding school, because as adults (for most of us, most of the time) they probably don't talk about it, because it is no longer relevant. None of those who were happy, or even OK would know there even was a 'survivors association' let alone feel the need to post there.

Both my parents have problems expressing their emotions, and are very good at pretending to get along with other people (useful life skill that one). My mother went to boarding school, my father didn't. Personally I think it is a class and a generational thing. None of my grandparents were very demonstative.

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I have been at a boarding school dinners where the boys were "allowed" out for cigarette breaks before pudding. Now at home that woul dnot be done and the children would not be under what I saw as in effect peer pressure to smoke. Instead they'd be home with their parents where no one smoked. I'm not saying chidlren in day schools don't smoke but I think parental influence is greater and perhaps you're with children whose parents are more involved who are at day school, fewer whose parents don't want to know perhaps so much. I think there's a big difference between working and seeing your child after school most days and its being at boarding school.

I think given that except a very few the boarding school exam results tend to be worse than the day schools, that children are exposed to more drink, drugs, under age sex and bad peer influence including children with too much money, the fact parental influence is less and worst of all given that some children really do need their parents around and are psychologically damaged and made cold and distant by the process it's a huge risk to take when you can get a better education in the day private sector in many areas for half the price and you get to cuddle your children each day (or in the case of some teenagers be the recipient of their daily grunt I suppose).