Page 7 | To not care that a sex offender got stabbed to death up the road from me.

PingpingsatonSantasface · 2008-12-12T15:50:21+00:00

Last night a 52 year old sex offender got stabbed to death A post-mortem examination said the cause of death was multiple wounds including mutilation of the groin. He was a known sex offender in the Wandsworth area and had attacked a girl under the age of 16. Everyone in my office is shocked that this could happen in our area literally down the road from me, but to be honest I am glad they did it and expressed this. One less perve off the streets. What do you think?

goldFAQinsenceandmyrrh · 12/12/2008 21:03

see that's where I think the "general" sex offenders register can be quite misleading, someone who has quite innocently (well as innocently as you can presuming they know the age of the person they are with iykwim) had consensual sex with someone under 16 is lumped together with someone who has sexual abused or raped someone.

noonki · 12/12/2008 21:06

lulu though I don't wish to condone what happened he was alway convicted of raping girl under the age of 13 and yet only recieved a 4 month prison sentence.

That too is deeply wrong. 4 months for rape is wrong. 4 months for raping a child is abhorent.

noonki · 12/12/2008 21:06

exactly thisiyesterday, mud sticks and all that.

goldFAQinsenceandmyrrh · 12/12/2008 21:06

Lulu - agree in general, but I have on my facebook friends a girl who was head girl at school - she was a year older than me. She is still very happily to the man she started seeing (and was pg by - while head girl ) when 16/17yrs old - he was in his mid/late 30's. (she now has four children with an age gap of 5yrs between oldest and youngest >)

Obvoiusly this is more of an exception the rule but I am a teeny bit wary of automatically judging relationships with such ages because of this one (admittedly anectdotal) case.

goldFAQinsenceandmyrrh · 12/12/2008 21:11

seems to be mixed reports I admit about whether it was one offence (15yr old consensual - but underage - sex) or one convictioin for rape of 13yr old girl and a further arrest.

Have just read that he was a father of 5 though - and regardless of his crimes (and whether he was actually in contact with any of his children/their feelings on his conviction) I can't help but feel sorry for them. At 52 I should imagine he was old enough to be a grandfather too.

jingleMAMADIVAsbells · 12/12/2008 21:11

Well I know of a 42YO woman who is sleeping with a 17YO boy and that disturbs me I have to say, yet this woman had a go at a 17YO boy sleeping with another man who was 35YO because it meant he mustve been pervy.

Why is it okay for women? I realise no one said that just a general thought it's wrong either way.

DoesntChristmasDragOn · 12/12/2008 21:13

Who would I rather live near... one known sex offender or an anonymous mob who can carry out a frenzied knife attack on a single defenseless man?

Mamazontopofsanta · 12/12/2008 21:14

i think that such actions cause registered sex offenders to go underground and refuse treatment. they are then no longer monitored and are far more likely to re offend.

but it's ok cos "there's one less perve"

what ignorance

jingleMAMADIVAsbells · 12/12/2008 21:21

And I have just realised I am bleating on shite, it is not wrong is it?

Both were 17YO doh!!!

Ach well everyone knows me on here I am the one who spouts shite like a big fountain

lulabellarama · 12/12/2008 21:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

juicyjolly · 12/12/2008 21:26

Nobody should take the law into their own hands. The thought of vigilante's finding and stabbing a man to death because of what he did makes me feel physically sick!
How, supposedly sane, law abiding people can hunt down another human and stab him to death is truly sickening.

No, we must never agree with any criminal being treated this way. We would be no better than them!

goldFAQinsenceandmyrrh · 12/12/2008 21:28

lol @ Mamadiva's realistion that they were both over the age of consent

Mamazontopofsanta · 12/12/2008 21:29

absolutly lulabellarama

jingleMAMADIVAsbells · 12/12/2008 21:33

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

FAQ I have just realised what your name was LOL I have been tryin to figure that out for days.

Im full of realisations tonight maybe Im psychic whos next then? I shall read your typing and imagine your palms

tiredsville · 12/12/2008 21:34

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Television, as everyone knows, is a profoundly shallow, vain industryCarol Midgley

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HomeArts & EntertainmentBooksMY PROFILE SHOP JOBS PROPERTY CLASSIFIEDSFrom The Sunday TimesAugust 3, 2008

The cunning minds of child abusers
The first undercover police officer to infiltrate the world of child abusers tells of their cunning waysCarol Anne Davis
There are about 11,000 convicted paedophiles in this country, the majority of whom have been offending for six years or more before they are convicted for the first time. The recidivism rate is high, and each new high-profile case brings calls for mandatory life sentences or open registers of paedophiles so that everyone in a neighbourhood can find out where they live.

Should they all be locked up for life? Must we discount any expressions of remorse ? or should we accept that even a paedophile deserves a second chance?

At the moment, even those who kill can sometimes be released. Ian Huntley, now 34, was told that he would have to serve 40 years before being eligible for parole ? which means that he could theoretically be released at the age of 68. The parents of his victims ? Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, the 10-year-old schoolgirls from Soham, Cambridgeshire ? were understandably horrified by this decision.

On the eve of the sixth anniversary of the killing of Holly and Jessica, a former detective reveals what he has learnt in nearly two decades as an undercover officer specialising in paedophiles. Ray Gardner (a pseudonym to protect his identity), has also held international seminars about paedophilia and set up a nationwide school for undercover officers.

In 1987, I was asked to infiltrate [the life of] an active paedophile, who was a teacher at a well-known private school. I was the first undercover officer to play the role of a paedophile ? and the teacher was subsequently charged. I found this operation the most disturbing role I had ever undertaken.

At one stage, I had to sit with him in a hotel bedroom while he masturbated, watching child pornography. Not only that, I had to show him that I was enjoying the video as much as he was, by making sexual comments. While I was watching the victims? faces [on screen], all I could see was the faces of my own two children when they were that age.

After one meeting with him, I was physically sick. I realised that if an undercover officer were to try to infiltrate [the lives of] paedophiles, he would need extra tuition before undertaking any such operation. I then started a school for undercover officers who wished to enter this field. It was five years before I had my first applicant.

During the time that I was infiltrating [the lives of] paedophiles, I read many books on the subject but found that the people in the books were completely different from the ones that I had met. I then realised that the people in the books were speaking to police officers, prison officers, barristers, social workers or authors and manipulating them to tell them what they wanted to hear.

The social worker wanted to hear that after speaking to the paedophile, he realised the error of his ways and showed genuine remorse. The same applied to lawyers and police. In all of the books that I read, the paedophiles showed remorse and wanted to be cured.

[In the course of my own work] I have heard some of them say: ?Why can?t you cut my testicles off?? The truth of the matter is that they know that no authority would be allowed to commit an act of grievous bodily harm, even with consent.

The paedophiles that I met were completely different [from those in the books]. None of these showed any remorse; and, in fact, they did not believe that they were committing any offence. They felt that they were sexually educating their victims. None of them wanted to be cured.

I was instructed by them what to do if I were arrested. I would first deny everything ? after all, my accuser would be a child and might not be believed. Second, if [the case] did go to court and there was overwhelming evidence against me, then I should break down and admit my guilt and ask if I could apologise personally to the victim for ruining his life.

They said that I should act suicidal and swear that the abuse would never happen again. If I did this, I would have a better chance of getting a lesser sentence because I would be showing that I was no longer a threat to society. They did mention that I should state that I was abused as a child. In fact, I found that most of the paedophiles I met had been abused as children ? but they did not say that they were abused. [Instead], they spoke about their first sexual experience.

They came from educated, illiterate, affluent and poor backgrounds. Some were married with children, the majority single. I found that whatever age when they were first abused was the age group that they now preferred.

I was abused on three separate occasions by separate paedophiles when I was a child. None of these was reported. I did not know how to report them, or indeed what to report. They did no permanent damage to me and did not affect my adolescent years. If you were to ask any man if he had been abused in some form or another, I would be surprised if at least 50% did not admit that they had suffered some nonreported abuse.

On average, every paedophile will abuse 200 different victims in his lifetime. If you guestimate that 100 of these victims will go on to be abusers, that will give you some idea of the extent of the problem.

I have not encountered any female paedophiles and it is obvious from records that they are in a minority. In many cases where a father has abused his daughters, I have found that they have not reported the matter until they have children of their own and are fearful that their father will abuse their child. That is the reason why many historic abuse cases are reported.

Clinics [that try to help paedophiles control their urges] are well intentioned and try very hard to reduce the amount of abuse that their clients perpetrate. I don?t wish to criticise anyone for trying to cure paedophiles, but I must repeat that I have never found a paedophile who wants to be cured.

And you cannot cure someone who does not want to be cured. The only way that we can protect the public from these people is to isolate them from the public.

I do not believe the legal system treats paedophile offences as seriously as it should. The theft of a child?s innocence, in my opinion, is far more serious than the theft of £2m from a train, and should be sentenced accordingly.

Chemical or any other form of castration does not work. It only takes away their ability to have sexual intercourse with their victims ? it does not stop their urges or their ability to abuse their victims with implements and then kill them after they have satisfied their lust.

Paedophiles thrive on any attention from well-meaning groups. The fact that people with no background knowledge of paedophilia could think that they could possibly influence them is absurd. The paedophile would manipulate these people to such an extent that they would use them in any subsequent trial for their defence.

They are the greatest groomers of people that you will ever meet. They will [try to] groom all social workers, police and lawyers. They will always try to portray themselves as victims of society. They are highly manipulative individuals who love to play mind games with you. All paedophiles will [try to] to show they are either victims, undergoing therapy or in a state of remorse.

The sad thing is that there are judges who believe what they hear. They genuinely believe that they are giving them another chance to mend their ways, rather than a golden opportunity to be released into the world to offend again.

There are many people who state that a child giving evidence about an abuse is tantamount to that child being abused again. It is even worse if the child?s evidence is not believed and the paedophile walks free.

There are dangers lurking all around children ? but if you labour the point, you risk taking the child?s innocence away yourself. The fact of the matter is that a seductive paedophile will always be able to groom his victims, but for that he needs access. The best thing a parent can do is to be more vigilant with the people who have access to his or her children. [But] if a paedophile wants to take your child, you will not be able to stop him.

However, I really think that it would be counterproductive to make the addresses of local paedophiles available to parents in an area. In practice, it would result in all of the paedophiles being assaulted, or worse, and then having to be rehoused in another area. At the same time, another paedophile would move into the vacated area.

I know many cases where paedophiles have obtained occupations that give them easier access to children, such as Scout leaders and teachers. In some cases, they are vastly overqualified and can easily obtain employment for more money, but prefer to have an occupation that gives them legitimate access to children. As a custodian of children, they are less likely to be suspected or accused.

Very seldom are there any pro-active investigations. If you look for paedophiles, you will find them. If you do not look, then statistically you will not find them and you will not have a paedophile problem in your area.

This is edited extract from Youthful Prey: Child Predators Who Kill, by Carol Anne Davis, published by Pennant Books at £9.99. Copies can be ordered for £9.49 including postage, from The Sunday Times BooksFirst on 0870 165 8585

Have your say

Having worked in this field for many years I do not know of any professional colleagues who would accept initial remorse etc as we are aware of 'grooming' behaviours. I also question that the Police would allow someone who has been a victim of abuse to go 'undercover' in this way.

cathy, Newcastle,

It sounds like Ms Davis knows exactly what she is talking about after having 1st hand experience. The book should be standard reading for ANYONE who has to or might have to deal with paedo's. Judges, police, social workers etc should know how manipulatively they really think. Knowledge is power!

Belinda, London, UK

An unsavoury topic. Paedophiles have always existed. At least now technology is helping to catch them. I used to not know that they groom families to get access to their children. Chilling. I totally agree sentences do not reflect damage done. The loss of a child's innocence is immeasurable!

Rita, Isleworth, England

As a survivor of child sexual abuse and rape myself, I support the sentiments expressed and agree that paedophiles can not be cured and had this said to me by workers in the field
None of the men i work with, all surviors of sexual abuse/rape, some by females, would never abuse a child

Steve , Swindon, UK

"If you guestimate that 100 [out of 200] of these victims will go on to be abusers..." By the copper's admission, a guess. It's also yet more assumptive nonsense imported from America which frankly, stops genuine victims from seeking help to get on with their lives. Library for this book, I think!

DoubleNine, London, UK

How about the abuse that happens to a child when they insist they were NOT abused and are not believed? They are forced to have invasive exams to prove they speak the truth and still the SS and plod insist that the child and evidence is false but only they speak the truth about alleged abuse.

Lynn, ex-pat, USA

"Very seldom are there any pro-active investigations. If you look for paedophiles, you will find them. If you do not look, then statistically you will not find them and you will not have a paedophile problem in your area."

Ermmm....pardon? This does not make sense. Where do false allegations fit?

RF, London,

The book sounds like a work of fiction. Scotland Yard carry out many proactive investigations each year posing as children in chatrooms etc. The police man sounds as if he is inexperienced and maybe his own psychological problems are showing. Many females have been convicted of abusing children.

Ian , Warrington,

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