To think that if you have a Caesarean, you have still given birth?

[Cupofteaplease]

I got talking to a pregnant lady yesterday and conversation turned to pregnancy, birth and beyond.

She said she hoped her baby would be small, so childbirth would be less painful. I said that my babies were both 8lb + and I loved having chunky babies! She said, in reference to me having 2 caesareans, that it didn't matter how big my babies were because I hadn't given birth to them.

Now obviously, I knew what she meant. But I still felt a bit . I would still say I have given birth to 2 children, even if they were extracted from me! Am I wrong in saying this?

blueshoes you might be right, it's most likely more to do with how I feel.

Do you know, I really fail to see why people get so upset about this.

I had an El CS and I've never heard (or seen in the case of MN, obviously!) so much crap about the case VB and how it's a better thing or I won't have actually 'birthed' my baby... Total strangers pontificating about my baby's entry to the world.

Who gives a toss? It's them losing sleep about it, not me.

And, while I do see your point RedFraggle (and, FWIW, don't think you were trying to be at all offensive), I think mums who have delivered still born babies (whether CS or VB) have still given birth and are still (and will always feel like) mums.

tbh it's a storm in a teacup.
yanbu to think that you have given birth in every sense of the word. she is not unreasonable in her application of what she defines as "giving birth".
why would someone elses views over a technicality have such an effect on you?
as theserioussanta said above
"It's them losing sleep about it, not me."

I can see why you would be upset. The whole thing surrounding pregnancy, birth, bf etc is so competitive for some people and if there is any deviation from the 'norm' on any one of them there will always be someone to pick you up on it.

I think you only have to look at your children toddling around/brandishing Barbie dolls/skulking in a teenage strop or doing whatever they do and remember that they came from nothing, you created them, grew them and raised them. What is that if not giving birth?

And I don't mean to exclude anyone with stillborn children. The principle is the same, the time scale is just different. To create a human being is amazing and anyone else can bugger off!

Surely being a mother is nothing atall to do with how your child entered your life.

I have had an emergency CS and an elective and I am just happy to have the DCs.

An adoptive mother is no less of a mother for not having given birth to the child.

Being a mother is hard enought without beating yourself up about how the DC got here. Agree with someone else who said it's becoming a competitive sport! Just too many people looking for a reason to judge someone else's parenting. (not on MN I mean - just in life in general).

my mum has had 10 children. 9 naturally and 1 Cs.

she found the Cs the more painfull and debilitating of all.

Of course you have given birth - silly woman. I had two 'normal' births but don;t feel my friends and relations who had C-sections have had it any easier. They carried the babies for 40 weeks - but then got scars, infections - not beineg able to drive or pick anything up for ages... Sounds much harder than I had it !!

My SIL had an emergency C-section with her first - had the hours of labour and pushing - the whole thing - AND then a caesarian -poor woman - far far worse!!!

blueydragon - 'natural' doesn't not mean 'right' or 'best', it simply means in accordance with nature. If you've had (as I have) a birth involving surgery or instruments then it's not a 'natural' birth. No moral judgement there!

To my mind if you have had a c-section you created a life and have had a birth. If I'm being nit-picking I'd quibble over whether you have 'given' birth, as that implies action on your part, which isn't required in a c-section birth.

Have to say - it's interesting that so many people read moral judgements into these things. I can't see any critical or moral judgement in the comment made to the OP.

"Being a mother is hard enought without beating yourself up about how the DC got here" - completely agree with this. I never regretted having a c-sect because it was absolutely what I wanted but I know some women have really bad feelings about it afterwards which is such a shame.

Cupofteaplease - yes you have definitely given birth. The pregnant lady might have been taking on board too much of what is promoted at some ante-natal classes, i.e. to have a CS is in some way not to go through the 'natural' birth route.
I had what our NCT teacher called an elective CS but as my DD was breech and wouldn't respond to an ECV, a CS was the only option left. So it wasn't exactly 'elective' as there was no alternative. For a long time I felt that I hadn't given birth in the true sense of the word, and I still find it awkward/alien when others are discussing their lengthy labours and point at which they pushed out their DC's and so on, as I can't relate to that. I also had a terrible time with bf but that is another story.
However, like many others I now believe that I have given birth, whichever way you look at it. I have found that those who don't have children of their own are generally the most ignorant, and likely to think that a CS is the 'easy' way and not 'natural.' More fool them I say.

I hate the word elective! I am not eligible for a VBAC because they had problems getting at Tink's head and had to make a second cut (basically an inverse T with a small upwards cut). I'm really upset about it, as much as I know they had a premature baby's life to save I would far rather give birth with no pain relief (like the first time) than have to go through a CS again (which will probably mean another GA). I've been told I'm having an elective, it just seems backwards, I didn't want or ask for it I don't agree with it but I'm so far removed from being eligible that they won't even discuss it with me.

Grrrr elective!!!

gaby, I agree with your post and I think it's what a lot of people are trying to say probably quite awkwardly.

Sorry tinselbaubles!!! I used the word elective in my post - I can see exactly what you mean, you are certainly not electing to have a section. for you - hope it goes well whatever happens.

Oh FGS notevenamousie! I wasn't deliberately excluding people who have given birth to still born or disabled babies - I was talking about the specifics of a "natural" birth compared to a caesarean birth. You cannot expect everyone to always think of every single possibility when typing a quick response to a question. the Op asked whther people felt that a caesarian was a form of birth and I answered with my own personal feelings based on my own personal experiences. It meant a lot to me that my daughter lived because she almost didn't - OK?

Of course you have given birth if you have a section.

That's ok silentnightplease, I was replying to houseproud It's been one of my bugs since I found out I'd have to have an "elective" section next time. TBH it's something that always puzzled me since I asked what it meant watching Holby.

I think that creating live is an amazing gift that we womens have, and it doesn't matter how they are born, they are in this world thanks to you, and that's the essence of life. They say that if is vaginal delivery, you deliver the baby,if C-section, the obstetrician does it, but I don't think that you have to suffer endless pain to consider that "delivering or not", is more of a technical matter, not very important!!!!
at the end, is another person in this world!!!

Elective just means that it is a booked section, with a known date, rather than the varying grades of emergency. It doesn't mean 'mummy chose it', or as one tactful individual said to me'it means it's your fault'.

YANBU COTP. One thing that puzzles me is how the woman you were talking about can be so certain that she will have a vaginal birth when she is still pregnant? I speak from experience as someone who planned her waterbirth and whale music/soft lighting type birth, but due to circumstances this went completely out of the window and I ended up with an ECS. Sometimes I wonder what a vaginal birth would be like, but ultimately I don't care how my son got here. I carried him for 9 months and he was born alive and healthy and that's what counts to me!

COTP - you have given birth - ignore the silly insensitive woman. I had an ECS with DD but I definitely gave birth (although it did take me a while to believe this and not feel like I'd failed).

BTW Pinner4 - I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. However, a CS is not always less painful than a labour. I did the labour, had an ECS and then got MRSA and was ill for months after my boy's birth. I couldn't even care for him for the first few weeks, so it really rattles me when people (not you! ) say it's the 'easy' way out - grrr!

"have a CS is in some way not to go through the 'natural' birth route"

Errrr, well it's not is it?

I know Pinky, but when you're so opposed to it but don't really have a say the word is irritating! Why can't they say "planned"? But then I guess I'd be qualifying it with "they're planning it, not me!"!

Hi THEDERSKINSDAME, sorry for your experience, and you are right, C-c is mayor surgery, so complications+etc..,at the end of the day, nothing is certain in life, and even less in medicin or health issues.
Well, WELL DONE TO ALL OF US THAT HAVE GIVEN BIRTH (in either way)!!!!!!
Big Cheersssssss!!!!!!!!And for those expecting as well!!!!!!!!!!

I have had a csection and given birth naturally.
I would rather give birth whilst being teathered by my hair to a yak, which is dragging me up Mount Everest than Ever have a csection again.

(pre eclampsia, 24 weeks, both nearly died etc.)