To think that all those generations of women who battled for equality for women have actually achieved nothing!

[flixx]

All that has changed is that women are now expected to go out and work and well as still being souly responsible for the vast majority of domestic stuff and childcare.

Womens lives aren't better or easier, infact they are now so complicated that half of us are so stressed and knackered we don't even remember who we are anymore.

The role of a mother is less valued by society than it has ever been when we all know that it truely is THE hardest job ever.

it's not THE hardest job ever

I agree with the idea though not the title!

The level of sexism in this country is absolutely horrendous still. And I can't see it getting better: Glamour models are role models for young girls. Girl toys are all about being famous and pretty and doing housework. Women do almost double the housework and childcare compared to their male partners when both are working full time. Domestic Violence and rape conviction rates are pathetic, with the press highlighting 'false rape allegations' 70% more than actual allegations.

I could go on and on.

Yup. Motherhood and domesticity (separate things, btw) have been greatly devalued, at huge cost to society. Women's own fault.

reality check:being a mum isnt the hardest job ever.any dumbass can do it(shannon mathews mum good example)

lets see
no JD,
no regulatory body,
no minimums standards of behaviour/quality
no sanctions if rubbish,
no pre-requisite training or qualifications
no checks and balances on quality
.....

i presume you wrote this in jest

I agree with noonki about role models and toys for young girls. I look at my daughters and feel sad that they don't have better women in the media as role models. I wonder how they will define themselves as women.

Jordan could be read as a woman using her brains and pneumatic assets to make money - there is a shred of truth in that - but mostly it's a crock of shit. The message women get these days is that all they should like is shopping and f'ing, shopping and f'ing. Saw that awful sex in the city film the other day and felt like burning my bra.

But it's ridiculous to think there hasn't been any progress. I am a SAHM and, despite having a status lower than a street cleaner, worked for years to get to a level where this could be a choice for me. My grandmother won a scholarship to grammar school in Peckham but was forced to leave at 15 because her father didn't think it was worth educating girls. I don't think she ever forgave him.

Any dumbass can do it badly, that's true. Any dumbass can do any job badly - including yours.

any dumbass who has been to uni,meets professional registration,maintains CPD,passed exams can do my job yes

as i said any dumbass can be a mum.ok most arent but get a grip isnt hard job ever

Nearly all women can conceive, give birth and hence be a mother. It requires practically no brain at all.

Bringing up children well requires a wide variety of skills and endless patience.

Women are as guilty of undervaluing the role of wife/mother as men are. Even more so, in many ways. In fact, it's mothers who place the least importance on the role.

It's mothers who are urging women to work outside the home, even when they have very young, dependent children. "I hope my daughter has larger aspirations for herself than just to get married and stay home" -- what is that except a complete lack of respect for the role of wife and mother, by a wife and mother?

On MN, many mothers admit that they can't wait to go back to work because being a SAHM is exhausting. They abandon the role because it's too hard. They don't get discouraged from this idea, they get sympathy, from other mothers. What is that but the undervaluation of motherhood -- again, by mothers themselves?

I think we have come on leaps and bounds in the last few generations and the attitude of the OP is a bit defeatist. My grandmother used to tell me she remembered when got the right to vote (in the states). So, my great grandmother (three generations back) didn't have the right to vote for the first few years of her adult life. My how things have changed -- for the better. And they will bebetter yet when my DD is grown up. These things take time. And just because we have not won the war does not mean we are not winning the war.

However...

I recently got a job offer (which I am still considering) which involves travel every week. My DH goes away for work every week. I have had several comments questioning whether I could really cope away from the kids M-F every week. I don't believe anyone has ever asked this of my DH. So, obviously, if I had a penis this would not be an issue.

I think feminism was an amazing movement and has contributed to all of our lives...would we even have a mumsnet if wasnt for the suffergetes (sp???).

However

Equality is a big word and it doesnt truly excist. Certainly in the societys we live in we are lucky but not all women are. Wearing a burhka for instance (dives from popcorn being thrown) for whatever reasons I could never accept as equal. Arranged marriages still doe excist sometimes with devastating results. But will we ever have equality? Because after all if it came down to it how many women could physically force a man to do something? I certainly couldnt physically force a 6'2 16st man to do anything. I doubt he'd have any trouble. But isnt that equality? Everyone having the same rights, responsibilitys etc

Am in a funny mood tonight....

BEAUTIFUL, hear hear.

When I suspended my direct marketing career to become a SAHM, I actually felt attacked by some female friends.

I always felt as a feminist, I supported choice.

I think you've quoted me there, BEAUTIFUL, and no, I don't see it as a complete lack of respect for anyone's role. I am simply stating that thank god, these days society enables women to have a stake in terms of getting a good education, entering interesting professions and so on. And they can do this AS WELL AS being a mother. And equally, we are hopefully raising our sons to want to be more than just a breadwinner - to be active, involved dads.

I don't understand how that is remotely disrespectful. I think being a parent is a wonderful part of life. Thankfully these days there are lots of other wonderful things men and women can be too.

Don't know about the rest of your OP but this:

"All that has changed is that women are now expected to go out and work and well as still being solely responsible for the vast majority of domestic stuff and childcare."

Those who are not are in the very lucky minority. No truer words were spoken. YANBU!

Well more fool them if they put up with it SantaClaus! There is an element of choice in it you know!

Personally i think the only thing holding women back are other women .

I'm not sure if the core of the problem is about equality between men and women. If a woman has no children there is nothing to stop her having the same opportunities as men.

The problem as I see it is that the workplace generally has not adapted to the conflict that arises when children are born. This is despite it being 80 years since women were able to vote, and many more since women began working alongside men.

An almost intractable problem though. When anyone starts a family something will have to give and take a back seat. Either one of the parent's careers (usually the woman's) or the traditional child-rearing. Damned if I can think of a solution other than much more flexible working but this simply isn't possible in many jobs/professions.

i don't recognise gushy description of motherhood an ethereal/wise/magical/nurturing goddess.surely such high unrealistic expectations can lead to dissatisfaction.it rigidly implies a proper mum is a sahm watching dependent children,a selfless martyr

in fact on MN such careless stereotyping of working mum as selfish is prevalent,and maybe some mums do find rile unsatisfying or "too hard".so what isnt it ones prerogative to chose.

isn't that empowering - choice

What does force have to do with equality mumof2andabit ?
I probably could force a small/med man to do my will does that make me equal ?

I thought several things reading the OP

Firstly that you mean of course women in the western world. At the risk of sounding very uptight, the experience of the vast majority of women worldwide is shit. I say this having lived in the middle east and africa and I thank my lucky stars that as a woman, I happen to be British. It may not be perfect yet but it is sooooo much better than the majority experience.

Secondly, I do essentially all the housework on top of being full time mum to two small children. Other posters are right, this is my own fault, it is the path of least resistance and the only way I get to live in a vaguely hygeinic house without constant stress. When I am back at work in a couple of years time we will get a cleaner and harmony will be restored. I do feel oddly guilty much of the time about not working at the moment, even though for all sorts of reasons it is the best thing for us, so yes I agreed being a SAHM feels like it is looked down on. I know I would either mother less well or perform less well at work if I went back fulltime now , possibly both. I wish I jsut had the confidence of a friend of mine who was the first woman ever in her field and gave up her career to have kids. She doesnt winge on about it like I do, Just says ' this is what I am doing now, this is what's important, in the future we'll see.' Of course it is bloody marvellous that both of us have done this out of choice.

Lastly I would say that our society has shifted hugely even just since my parents' generation. My FIL, (lovely man, really likes kids), never once changed the nappy of any of his 5 kids, never got up to them at night etc. he looks at my DH now and says 'I got off lightly didnt I..?' I dont think you should negate the progress that has been made and is being made all the time.

'On MN, many mothers admit that they can't wait to go back to work because being a SAHM is exhausting. They abandon the role because it's too hard. '

So, can we turn this around and conclude that women who give up careers to become SAHM, are abandoning work because it's too hard and they can't cope with it?

Or is this one of those arguments that only applies one way?!

As for flexible working not being possible in many jobs that makes me laugh.
I used to employ 30 consultants in recruitment to sell IT solutions.
At most on any given day I would say I got three hours of solid work out of any of them.
Their day would start at 8.30am if they were on time, 15 mins loading up a computer (yeah right), making tea, moaning about hang overs etc etc. 9.15 ish they'd hit the phones, an hours work then stop for tea, next spend 30/40 messing around on the net, answering emails, before you know it it's lunch time.
And yet company's tell me I can't do that job 3 days a week. I could probably do it in one day if the truth be told.
Flexible working for mothers and fathers is the ONLY way forward not more nurseries, after school clubs etc.

Force only comes into play if you are talking about true equlaity which means that everyone is on a level, posseses the same abilities etc

Or maybe it is a completly off topic point have discussed this topic so many times can reel out dozens of different all weird and wacky arguments!