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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that all those generations of women who battled for equality for women have actually achieved nothing!

601 replies

flixx · 02/12/2008 16:59

All that has changed is that women are now expected to go out and work and well as still being souly responsible for the vast majority of domestic stuff and childcare.

Womens lives aren't better or easier, infact they are now so complicated that half of us are so stressed and knackered we don't even remember who we are anymore.

The role of a mother is less valued by society than it has ever been when we all know that it truely is THE hardest job ever.

OP posts:
stillstanding · 06/12/2008 10:19

Cathpot, your DH's comments made me laugh!

It has always been something I have wondered about Xenia myself. It's not the going back to work after two weeks thing as I can see how that could happen but a few other things that just don't ring true for me, for example:

  1. All the island/enormous house chat: I know a few people who are very, very wealthy indeed. And you would never ever find them defining or discussing their wealth in these terms. I think they would consider it vulgar/ostentious but also unnecessary. Obviously on some of these threads it is relevant to understand that the poster is incredibly wealthy but I just can't see them saying "I have an island" repeatedly as a measure of such wealth.

  2. Recognition in real life: There must be few women who have Xenia's role and profile and, with the amount of life facts provided on MN, she would surely be easily recognisable in RL?

  3. The amount of time Xenia is on MN: In my experience someone in such a high-powered job would have both limited time and interest in pootling around on MN. Such people are usually very, very focused and would consider this a waste of very valuable time.

Ultimately tho, despite my reservations, I think it may just be possible that she is the real deal and that the above can be explained by personality so I am prepared to suspend my disbelief - imo she adds considerable value and a different perspective to the debate so I'm glad she bothers with us common folk!

blueshoes · 06/12/2008 10:41

stillstanding, xenia is the real deal. Many mnetters have a good idea who she is in RL but it is very bad form to out someone and invade their privacy. She has time to post because she works for herself ie her own boss. I am very grateful for her perspective as well. We need all types of views represented on mn.

Judy1234 · 06/12/2008 10:43

This is the sexism that is entrenched in the UK. Look at the vitriol passed out at Sarah Palin because she went back to work quickly. We ought to have a choice. Some of us are fit and well after birth. Yes I was tired but it was hugely easier to be sitting at desk than looking after a baby, 1 year old and 3 year old at home which I otherwise woudl have been doing when I was 26.

I would be delighted if anyone thought I didn't exist as I never seem to be able to post anywhere without someone popping up saying clever old me I typed into google a few key facts and found "Xenia". I want to retain my anonymity.

It is very important other women know women can happily have five children and earn six figure sums and lead balanced lives and that is the only reason I might mention my work, return to work etc. I don't think I have ever said what I've earned. I certainly don't have any wealth at all and the island cost less than most Spanish villas but is very nice to have.

Going back to work quickly when you have a baby is not difficult for many women and we ought to have the choice and not be criticised for it. I've pasted on here before why it's a good thing for some of us, not least because the baby gets used to its routine and bonds with mother, father and nanny very early on rather htan used to mother 24/7 until age 1 and then ripped form mother's bosom with huge emotional trauma when it's life is radically changed and mother goes back to work then or whatever.

I adore babies and loved breastfeeding and would even like to have one now at 46. When I'd given birth to teh twins I was 36 and the first day home I was alone which wasn't ideal but life is never ideal and that was harder as I had to get downstairs to answer the phone a few times to clients. First week was school half term so their father was there and looked after them whilst I worked but obviously I was at home and just doing what I felt like doing and breastfeeding in the usual fairly constant way you do with small babies. Then week after their nanny started work here but again easier than when I was 26 as I was based at home so I didn't have to express milk. I never liked expressing although I did it in my 20s.

I certainly don't think women have a worse deal now than 100 years ago as we have more legal rights. 100 years ago most worked, many in factories and as domestic servants. Many children under 5 died and many siblings had to mind other children. Women's lot is hugely easier. Read tuppenece to cross the mersey or whatever that autobiography is if you want to see the life of many people in this country not that very long ago.

We have really never had it so good in some senses, even compared to normal life in the 1950s or 60s or even in the early 80s when we certainly couldn't afford to buy anything for the children new. It will probably do the nation good if it has to go back to a little of a flavour of post war austerity/rationing but I doubt things will get anything like as hard as they used to be then but we'll see. It's certainly interesting times and for the benefit of women actually although they may not think so at present if they are forced back to work as their husband loses his job or it is less secure it will do them the world of good, just the push some of them need and they tend to be a lot happier in work anyway, most of them.

[And I've earned no money yet so far so I'd better go off and remedy that]

MrsSeanBean · 06/12/2008 10:45

Hi daftpunk .

I am a SAHM and fed up with DHs taxes going on losers as well.

I dunno about the benefits system in the 50s, don't think there was so much call for it in those days? Maybe society was not so fucked up needy then

MrsSeanBean · 06/12/2008 10:48

Xenia - TUT TUT!!

Don't go wasting MNers time with trivial issues like sexism - mock see here

daftpunk · 06/12/2008 10:55

hi, mrs sb...(sorry i think i spelt your name wrong earler..)

yes, it's crazy.... you want 7 kid's you pay for them!

AtheneNoctua · 06/12/2008 10:55

We've had these acusation before. Xenia is real. Many of us know who she is she. But I think it would be very poor form to reveal another poster's RL identity on here so I won't present the evidence to prove it. But she's real. All she says is true. It's just that her views are radically different from those held by so many MNers that they can't really get their head round her beliefs, and then they think the only feasible explanations is that she is either no real or she is actually a man.

I think Xenia is a remarkable woman. She has achieved successes I will only ever dream about. (and she clearly works harder and spends less time on MN than I do.)

BTW, I too went back to work 2 weeks post birth, although I did it out of financial necessity. And mine was a crash section. Everyone is different. My sister in law got up and cooked a roast chicken dinner and did some other housework the day her second child was born.

Cathpot · 06/12/2008 12:18

Morning all. I am aware Xenia is real, was just gently teasing. I am not sure if there is a'gently teasing Xenia' emoticon, although I sense there might be a Xmas design competition in it?

I think that using her however as an aspirational benchmark for work life balance is, unrealistic. I dont think I am doing you a disservice Xenia to observe that on the normal bell curve of maternal feelings you are towards one edge. Most women are in more danger of accidentally savaging the arm of a well intentioned inlaw who offers to hold their newborn, than hosting international business calls. I admire the fact you are successful and dont waste time regreting past decisions, and also are willing to swim against the tide on a forum like this without getting personal about it. I would say that you seem to think money is the route to happiness and this is just not the case for many people when it comes to family and friends.

I think too little money is a route to unhappiness but over a certain amount it becomes an irrelevance, at least for me. This is of course fortunate becasue unless I get into major crime or something unexpected happens at the dept of education, I am never going to experience of running round and island shouting 'mwhhaaaa its all mine.' The best times I can think of in my life and I say this without a hollywood style violin sound track, involved people, often beaches its true, but various people at various times.

All this said I certainly dont want to live in a society where women like Xenia are an impossibility.

Now I need to duck out. My husband only dragged my off mn last night by appearing in his pants waving a series 3 DVD of the Wire, and my youngest has been taking the opportunity of my back being turned to post a random selection of jigsaw pieces between the floor boards. Its been a pleasure .

findtheriver · 06/12/2008 12:40

Having skimmed through the last few pages... daftpunk, your attitude astounds me!!!

Yes, please do get back to the 1950s. And those of us who love having children and raising them and who can also cope with having interesting careers too will carry on in the 21st century.

TheNewsMongersGeansaiNollag · 06/12/2008 12:48

I don't know who she is in rl, but she is so consistent in her beliefs and always posts about this subject and little else, it would seem strange to single out Xenia amongst mumsnetters as being 'unreal'.

stillstanding · 06/12/2008 13:27

Thanks for all responses to me and apologies if I offended in any way - I certainly didn't mean to "accuse" any one. It was just a few things that niggled at me and didn't ring true but I am thrilled to discover that Xenia is the real deal!

And I am grateful for her perspective and views. I might not always agree with them but they force me to challenge my own views and sometimes I actually slide a little closer to her position ...

daftpunk · 06/12/2008 15:22

findtheriver;

not sure why my attitude astounds you, i've said all along if you want to go back to work after having a baby..then fine. but the reality is alot of women don't, but are forced to for financial reasons. why not help those women stay at home (at least for the all important 1st year)...that right should be for all women, not just the women who make living off benefits a life style choice, having child after child, with no intention of ever working.

Judy1234 · 06/12/2008 15:23

I am probably more maternal than a lot of women actually. I was reading NCT leaflets in my teens and books on birth position, often written about breastfeeding, adore babies and had five. But I also like work. I think I've done lots of both of those things in the last 24 years and I'm really glad I've had so many chidlren over that time, not just 2 crammed into 5 years of 24/7 childcare but the entirety of my adult life with small children around. It's wonderful. SO I'm not really in a category of least maternal person around.

What you really need is the me at 26 with 3 children under 4 or even 10 years ago with the twins because that's when having children is difficult, not when the youngest are 10 and perhaps I forget how it was, perhaps I change the past even. It's hard to tell although I was reading a profile of the family from when the older children were about 5/7/9 and I think I was saying fairly similar things.

Also I tend to write about things that are on here. I'm sitting here doing my VAT. I could write about tax or men or dating in your 40s etc. I could write about all kinds of other things but they don't really come up as much.

AtheneNoctua · 07/12/2008 09:13

Daftpunk, what about fathers who want to stay home. Should they not have the same rights and financial support?

And you have not been saying all along that it is fine for mothers who want to go to work to do so. You have in fact been saying that a woman's place is in the home once she has children, which is of course a bunch Victorian Chauvenist tosh.

aSpacePunkcametravelling · 07/12/2008 17:44

hi athenenoctua;

yes, of course fathers would have the same rights.

listen, i have been totally mis-understood on here, i'm all for women going out there and being successful, i just think it's harder when you have children?

but hey..i've learn't alot from this thread..you all sound so fulfilled and happy...maybe i'm just jealous ....who knows?

Judy1234 · 07/12/2008 18:38

Life is harder for everyone when they have children and always has been. It's why some girls in the days before contraception would even join convents to avoid a life of child bearing and responsibility etc. It was ever thus but we do seem to be driven by our biology as men and women to want to breed.

I doubt everyone is happy and fulfilled. I certainly would have been less happy had I spent the last 24 years at home rather than forging a fascinating career and earning some money but I would also have been much less happy had I reached my 40s and never had a child. I love both aspects. And men and women all have their equal share of life's woes, I'm sure, whether they work or not.

What I was always sure about was however much I adored being pregnant and breastfeeding and cuddling little children and I loved it so much I had a large family, I would not have been happy and fulfilled at home.

I also think our mental state is more determined by thing internal to us, our genes, our food, lifestyle etc as much as whether we have more or less money etc. That's really the more important issue for most people - their internal happiness or whether they're depressed. Some people will never be happy whatever life gives them and some will be perfectly jolly and feel happy as the local lavatory cleaner. It doesn't have that much to do with what you earn.

aSpacePunkcametravelling · 07/12/2008 19:05

i admire you xenia i really do..you are a great role model for women, you've gone out there and you've achieved...but i feel i've achieved too. i know my limitations, i knew i wouldn't have handled being a working mum, (with a baby) it would have stressed me out. i was never really ambitious anyway ( although i always dreamt about being an actress/dancer..lol) so, i put all my energy into providing as good a life as i could for my husband and children...i knew all i'd ever be was a wife and mother...but i excepted it....i think i've been ok at it...my kids are great..my dh likes having me at home (although he would support me all the way if i wanted to have a career) i don't think i've let "the side down" by having no real ambition.....although i've found being at home sometimes so totally boring i'd happily work on the till at tesco.

AtheneNoctua · 08/12/2008 09:14

Seems a little defensive SpacePunk. You are defending points that have actually not been directed your way which leads me to wonder if they come from within. Are you really happy with your choice?

msbossy · 08/12/2008 09:30

YANBU to think there are still problems but we've come a long way. Who are you blaming for the shortfall from your expectations? Women got complacent and gave up fighting. Women of earlier generations started the job but we must finish it.

  • expect to be treated equally (this means give as well as take!)
  • ask where Shannon Matthews' father is while we all look at her mother in horror
  • if you think you should be paid more, fight for it
  • if you'd like to share the childcare with your partner, try to find a way to do it
  • welcome dads and encourage your partner to go to "mother and toddler" groups
  • raise your daughters and sons to believe they have the same opportunities and responsibilities in their lives

Sorry for the lecture but hey - checkout my nickname ;-o

Monkeytrousers · 08/12/2008 10:58

Didn't seem defensive at all AN. She is asserting her choices as just as valid and actually being very gracious to Xenia.

So Xenia fits the criteria for being a 'second wave' feminist success. Feminism is moving on - and not before time. It appplauds women for making their own choices, following their own hearts and instincts, which is tantomount to letting the side down by 2nd wave standards.

Monkeytrousers · 08/12/2008 14:48

There's different types of depression Xenia. Most people get or have reactive depression, which is a resonse to an event - and a muchg needed one as it motivates you to get out or change that thing. Other things are unavoidable, bereavement, old age, ill health - which is the biggest predictor in depression.

I think kyou might just be talking about

Monkeytrousers · 08/12/2008 14:53

opps, lost connection

..grumpy people - which is more about personality.

Other than that people who have been chronically abused and have long standing mental health issues.

Judy1234 · 08/12/2008 23:10

True so the shock of being home alone with a baby and losing all your social contact and arguably economic worth and work friends might well make some women miserable or depressed. My family are all psychiatrists just about except me not that that qualifies me to know huge amounts about depression I suppose.

not feeling in control of your situation may make people depressed too and think those in poverty or in jobs where they can't decide the hours and have to be there on the factory production line etc do have much much more stress and depression than supposedly over worked higher up managers.

I certaily agree with msbossy that there is a job to finish and all that advice is good and thankfully most of us haven't had those problems. I never really had any suggestion in my marriage in the early 80s that just because I was female I was the one to clean the toilets. Nor I am sure do my daughters in their relationship with their boyfriends in the noughties.

It certainly behoves every woman even now though to look out for creeping sexism coming back, the man who thinks it's fine he never lifts a finger at ahome etc - tolerating that is a moral wrong really against oterh women your daughters and really also against the man in letting him think it's okay.

NotanOtter · 08/12/2008 23:19

Yo Msbossy you go for it !

eowyningreen · 09/08/2009 20:02

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