To think that all those generations of women who battled for equality for women have actually achieved nothing!

[flixx]

All that has changed is that women are now expected to go out and work and well as still being souly responsible for the vast majority of domestic stuff and childcare.

Womens lives aren't better or easier, infact they are now so complicated that half of us are so stressed and knackered we don't even remember who we are anymore.

The role of a mother is less valued by society than it has ever been when we all know that it truely is THE hardest job ever.

I had 3 DCs all of whom were breastfed and co-slept for at least the first year or so. All of whom were more or less allergic to sleep And I was working. All the time. I will admit to exhaustion. But do you know what was worse? That period was short-term at least. Worse was working part-time after my 3rd child was born and doing all the housework, school run, lunchboxes and all the other crap that still needs doing whether you work or not. And feeling inadequate at both work and home.

Working and having children is fine. But doing it without more support from someone else is not. Feminism is also about making sure that the man in the household does not see housework and childcare as the role of the woman.

I feel better, less tired, more empowered now I am back full-time that I have for years. If feminism is responsible for that then it did some good afaic.

"Womens lives aren't better or easier"

Oh what a load of rubbish. More complicated maybe, but man and women's live are. Our lives today are vastly better and easier than our forebears.

I agree the role of mother is not valuyed enough. But less valued than ever? How can you qualify such a statement?

It does not behove feminist to make up straw men when they fancy a bit of a rumble. It's puts feminism into disrepute more like, which is why it's feminism that is less valued than ever before.

paying women to stay at home was me being idealistic....although alot of working women get their childcare paid for them, so the tax payer is actually paying someone else to look after children, rather than the mother. yes i know she's out in the workplace helping the economy etc, but i deffo think more should be done to help women stay at home.

"I agree with the OP. We have all these rights, and all these duties and responsibilities, but they are in ADDITION to being a housewife, and being responsible for the domestic stuff."

Isn't it this way because we can't predict the future? Second wave feminism was all about renounving femininity, motherhood, etc, and thought that you could program someone not to be hetrosexual, or girly. These were all very naive thoughts that feminism was sure were correct. We only know they were wrong because they were tried and tested and failed.

We are not at the end of the road by any means. But I persoanlly think it's about time we left the 2nd wave battlecries behind and made up a few of our own. And actually less battlecries, more work behind the scenes.

If accomodation costs went back to being a reasonable portion of earnings - there would be no need for both parents to work and most households could choose to have a SAHP, or not.

Blueshoes, a free ride?

Good parenting saves society millions.

And is every parent a GOOD parent?

When did Feminism in any of its many forms, ever endeavour to make 'life easier'. It is about respect and enabling choice.

As many have mentioned:
The right to work
The right to own property
The right to be a legal entity in ones own right
The right to vote
etc

What that leaves us with a more complex world, within which we have to make choices to suit us and take responsibility for them.

This means that there should be no automatic assumption that women do all the housework. Whilst I find childcare costs crippling, I do recongnise that this actually values child care within our (capitalist) society. If I chose to be a SAHM, the financial worth of that contribution could actually be identified via childcare costs plus cleaner costs plus any other job I choose to outource, which would no longer need to be paid.

Diversity of choice means that we need to stop seeing childcare/domestic choices as female considerations (whether we work outside the home or not), and start ensuring that men take responsibility for these contributions as well. It is really our challenge for the future.

Sorry ranty, long, but I just think there is a fundamental difference between an
'easy life' vs 'a life with choices'.

"A lot of working women get their childcare paid for them" - I wish. My dh and I work full time and earn a good income.My dd has a fantastic CM who has infinite patience and does so many things with the children. I love my work (most of the time), it's what I studied for for years and I love dealing with the issues that come up. I didn't enjoy staying at home during ML, I was lonely and down etc, financially, I have to work so there was no dilemma for me at all in returning. ( And yes, I know that if I had really wanted to I could have spread our mortgage out to 35 years, grown food in a windowbox etc ). More should be done to help parents who want to stay at home, I think, I know my dh would be waaaay better looking after our lo than me.

feel better now, but the above post is very disjointed

Daftpunk: 'alot of working women get their childcare paid for them, so the tax payer is actually paying someone else to look after children, rather than the mother.'

No, we don't get childcare paid for us - not in the multiples it would need to be to get a sensible job anyway. I get childcare vouchers which means I get to pay less tax - but I get nothing more. I don't get tax credits etc but I understand it is a pittance.

You and I get child benefit. You and I get surestart funding for 3+. Have you tried to find a job within those pitiful nursery hours?

there is nothing disjointed in wanting to help women stay at home and look after their child..if they want to.

but if you're happy paying another women to do your job then fine!

Exactly nkweto.

It never was about an easy life.

"but if you're happy paying another women to do your job then fine"

blueshoes, i haven't worked for years tbh, have 4 children so impossible.

fair enough, i'll go now...but if you think my veiws are "pointless" just because i would like to see more women helped to stay at home, rather than pay someone else to look after their children...then i think feminism has passed you by anniemac.

but why "women helped to stay at home"?
I would be a dreadful stay at home parent, as I'm sure many of my colleagues would be .
Are only women capable of minding children? No.
Please don't play the Biology is Destiny Card!
Would some men and some women like to be able to stay at home with kids? Yes.

Well according to many on this thread feminism has done us a great disservice annie By rooting us out of our lovely comfy child-rearing SAH lifestyles and giving us different horizons dammit!

listen, i think it's bloody great that women have the choice to go out to work..if they want to, but for the vast majority of working women it's a necessary drudge. not all working women have high-flying jobs in advertising/fashion design/whatever...alot of women have low paid jobs in childcare/cleaning/catering...hard jobs for low wages..these women should be helped to stay at home annimac, that's all i'm saying. and yes, i know there are plenty of men in low paid jobs, but women need extra help as they still do the bulk of the childcare/housework.

i'm not saying all women should live off the state until their children reach 18, i'm saying women with young babies should be helped to stay at home, not encouraged to go out to work.
i apologise if i have annoyed any working mothers on this thread, that was never my intention.

agree totally anniemac. What's dispiriting is that I think that we are very severe on our own sex. I don't think that I am more "liberated" than my grandmother for example, she was a strong woman in her own way and that she didn't "work" is irrelevant. She was raised to be a "lady" ie decorative and married "beneath" her. She was wonderfully creative,with fabulous cooking and dressmaking, played the piano and violin beautifully, ran a farm and raised her children in very difficult circumstances etc. . I think that if she were alive she'd be proud of me, who I am, what I've achieved, my work, our family. The fact that I am not defined by my husband and earn my own income.Feminism is having the right to choose, not to follow certain norms or societal expectations.